Welcome to this week's episode of the Freedom Fridays Project. And I'm really excited, a brand new thing for me. I've got a guest. I've got an ordinary guy doing an extraordinary thing. And that's what Freedom Fridays is really all about, moving from I have to, to I choose to. So please welcome Alex Moffat.
Hey, Pete, how are you?
I'm very good. Thanks, sir. Thanks for coming on the podcast. And I believe that you're a magician. That's very true. What makes you believe that? And of course, the magician would say that. Alex, I normally start these with a question around the big change that you're making? What's the big - I have to, to I choose to? So to help other people under change? What is that for you?
So for me, I get up every morning, go to work every day. But in the background, I've been a magician for 30 years. And what I've learned more recently, in the last five, six years being a leader, is that a lot of the learns that I've got from magic, a lot of the experiences, a lot of the principles, and concepts, and psychology of magic appear in my leadership. And they either have instinctively been been used to help enhance my leadership capabilities, I guess, or deliberately used, and so over the years have gradually weaved them in somehow, like I said, it's either naturally or deliberately. And I'm finding that it's just making me a different leader, learn more as a leader, and be able to get perhaps messages across, communication influence, etc, as a leader - just in a different way. And a more interesting way, right? Using my passion of both leadership and magic combined. So the shift recently has been to, to start talking about it and telling stories about it, and how it works together.
Cool. I'm going to go back to the start of if I may. I remember as a kid myself, as I'm sure many of the listeners had, you know, getting Marvin's Magic Set. And as a parent, it was such an easy gift to buy for the kids because it's a little bit different. And yet, I never continued. What got you into it? And what made you continue?
So Marvin's Magic, it's amazing. Before they were around, it was Paul Daniel's Magic Set, so he's the British famous magician. And so I got that, but I continued with it. And there's a bit of a curiosity is what sort of gets you through it, because you kind of want to know how a trick done when you see it. And they're all colourful, shiny little objects, and they look attractive, and the box is there. So it's a toy box. But there's secrets within it. So it becomes even more intriguing. Then it becomes the reactions you get. And I can imagine as a seven year old starting out, my parents watching me try to do with one of these little tricks they probably saw straight through it. But of course the encouragement. And the 'oh wow, that's amazing' sort of reactions, just make you want to do it again. And often. Still, today, just think it's the reactions that keep you going. The people, how they respond and how interested they are in it is amazing.
There's something you said there about secrets. And I've always wondered almost around the world. Anytime I've been involved in a magic show or anything to do with magic. Everybody knows it's a trick. Everybody knows it's an illusion. And yet still we go wow, what that was amazing. Is it because it's revealing secrets to us? Do you think?
I think that people like to be entertained for a start with magic. But they also like to, to have that wow factor in there. They like to be fooled or amazed and just scratch their heads at something. Because it is different, isn't it? It's an amazing thing. And when I was at university, doing fine arts, I weaved together illusion in art, nature and magic. And I studied someone called Professor Gombrich, who talked around illusion through expectation. And it's how magicians set up a train of expectations, semblance of familiar situations that causes our minds to run ahead and trick themselves. Trick our own minds, because we jump ahead to conclusions. And that's kind of how we get tricked. It's our prior experiences in life getting altered some way. And so magic is all about trying to do something relatively naturally. But there's something going on obviously in the background and the magician knows but the other person has taken on this journey of everything looks natural so far. And then bam, something just changes. That is the magic. That's the bit. And that's what makes people go well, I was never expecting that! Because their mind has run ahead and completed itself.
That's interesting you say about being tricked. Because I sense you know, in general life, if I feel like I've been tricked, it's not a good feeling. If I've been sold something that I didn't want to be sold, if I've been given fake information, it doesn't feel great. But what a magicians have over us that we know it's a trick, and we can got brilliant, you've tricked me fantastic!
It is probably the fact that you know, you're being entertained. So you know you're in a safe environment where you've not got a con artist trying to take something from you or trick you it is that entertainment. You're either paying for it yourself, or you're part of an audience watching a show. And that becomes acceptable. So often, I say that the magician is the most honest person in the room because they tell you, they're going to lie to you, and then they actually do, and everyone accepts that. The audience gives that permission to the magician, to lie and be deceiving. And there's a bit of a contrast with that whole, being honest and being deceiving, it's a bit of a battle as a magician in life because you're kind of being a liar on one point, part of your life, but you're doing it in the name of entertainment. So it's okay to do that. And the audience accepts that because they know this is a magician he's here to entertain us. He's not here to to try and get one over on us.
In a little bit the research I did Alex, I found out that obviously different types of magician, what sort of magician are you?
I would class myself as my branding is kind of this English gentleman, closer, sleight of hand artist. But of course, this illusionist, there's grand illusionists. There's silent magicians who performed to music with manipulation and sleight of hand. It's an art form really. And it's one of the most difficult art forms out there. Because you've got to be artistic in some way visually. The sound, but then there's psychology and deception, underlying it all that there's got to be practised as well. So it's a tough gig, but it's an exciting one. It's a challenge.
What are some of the myths that the general public would expect from a magician or what would they assume that you can perhaps debunk for us?
I think that, that's a difficult one. When I think of what they the audience asks me a lot. It's always the 'Can you make my wife disappear?'. Of course, the answer is no. Well sometimes I've grabbed her arm and run out of the room, just as a joke. But no. Can you pull a rabbit out of a hat, all these sorts of cliches, I suppose now.
Let's move on for a second. Are you a geek, a magician's geek? And how much of a magic geek are you?
If you ask my wife that question, she would say a huge geek. I'm probably a book geek. So I've been collecting books since I was seven. So maybe 400 or 500 magic books in a library at home, that surround me that can inspire me the creativity, etc. And I'll just go to one of those books if I want to learn a particular piece. For inspiration, as well. There's lots on theory, lots on actual teaching magic, of course. So that's the geek in me buying books, I wouldn't say I'm a trick geek. A lot of magicians buy tricks, and get addicted to doing that. I've done a little bit of that over the years, but a lot of what I do is the sleight of hand. So I'd rather do magic with everyday objects that people own or just an ordinary pack of cards. Or if you go to a restaurant, something in the restaurant, something in the hotel, something in the bar, things that you can pick up to make it more natural. So in terms of geekiness I don't think magic is a geeky profession. It's an art form isn't it? It's an art form, yeah. It's not like going to a Star Trek convention. But we do have magic conventions. I don't know what the perception from the public would be of someone going to a magic convention. But for me, it's a place to learn and watch amazing things happen. Yeah, artists can apply their craft.
Can I ask a personal question? We're both recording this, we're both Brits in Australia. I was blown away when I first came across Derren Brown in the UK. Yeah, he's amazing. Now Derren Brown is your kind of version of mentalist, psychologist, illusionist, magician, etc. And he's done some amazing, quite confronting TV programmes and documentaries. For those that don't know, Derren, can you give us just 30 seconds on what he does? And what do you think of what he does?
So what he does is amongst the best in the world, and every magician would tell you that. So he is a psychological illusionist, using the powers of suggestion, mind control, as well as being one of the best sleight of hand card magicians in the world. But he doesn't do any of that. He used to. So he's got it, but he uses just purely the mind.
Does he actually control our mind? Are we that unconscious that someone like that who's so practised, so artful, so masterful, they can actually control our mind?
He's as close to a Jedi as you would get. And yes, the suggestion is talking to the unconscious mind. The unconscious is more powerful than the conscious mind. So if you can talk to the unconscious, and it's sort of getting into the hypnotism realm now, but that's what makes it powerful. So the powers of suggestion and enabling people to think in a certain way, he'll talk to them, and just by talking to them, he'll be able to plant things in their mind that he can then reveal later on.
What do you think of some of the confronting documentaries that he's filmed? Because some of them, you know, I remember one where he'd put people into a trance, and had them then placed into a warehouse, where they had to literally kill zombies. And it was real people dressed up as zombies, and they woke them up. And it was so confronting, one of my concerns was when that person came out of that, what memories would they have? What would they be carrying with them? For days, weeks, months, years? A lifetime? Is that a fair question?
It is a fair question. I think that he is so professional and his team that they're never going to let anyone come to any harm. So I'm not a hypnotist, I don't use this in my work. But he would always move them out of whatever state they've been in very safely. So that they just currently leading a normal life. But it was part of their life prior to that, it's an experience they've gone through. And whether they remember exactly everything that happened or how it happened, or not who knows. But yes, it's a totally different form of entertainment, if you like, and he does go down that kind of shocking route. He's had people even get on the brink of pushing someone off a building.
Yes, I've seen that. It's extraordinary. It's very uncomfortable to watch it is.
And that just shows what's possible. That the human mind, how far it can be stretched and what's possible. So I find that fascinating, but yeah, he's a different league.
I'd love to chat to you more, perhaps offline, Alex or maybe we can get you back for a second when we talk much more about the whole mind control unconscious, you know, that kind of way that we fall into suggestion from other people. But I do want to move on if that's all right and talk about this change that you're making this big from to. If someone was looking to make a change in their life, whether you know going from a nine to five job to becoming a magician, going from the family home to a new home because your kids have gone, if it was from a particular profession to something else. The journey that you've gone on, do you have any top tips in what to look out for on the way?
Well, it starts with you got to be passionate about it really have a passion that drives you within. To have this burning desire to do something different and take the leap.
Does that come from inside you, as opposed to outside you?
I'd say yes, it's something that you've, for me, the magic is something that I think about every single day. And probably within every hour of every day, there's some kind of thought coming in. So there's a drive there to want to do more of that in my life, and how can I blend that into my life while doing my normal day job as well. So people find a way to transitioning from one thing to another is I guess you've got a plot, plot your your course on how you want to do it. And think of the the obstacles that might come up in the way, but with your drive and your passion, you just get through it.
So whatever obstacles come up, whether you've planned for them or not, this internal drive this passion for the topic, or the goal, or what you imagined the objective to be, that sees you through that challenge anyway, is that what you're saying?
Yeah, I think, for me, I've changed course a few times over the years and thought, I'm trying to jump ahead into something too difficult. So I need to take the baby step. So it's about just recalibrating, and going, well, actually, this is the step I need to take. So ultimately, I'd like to be a speaker around the magic, the storytelling, the leadership connections. And in the past, I've maybe tried to assume I can just jump straight into that. So I've decided to take baby steps by dipping my toe in the water in storytelling, very short ones. And seeing how people are reacting to that and seeing if people are interested in it. And then you find that you get validation along the way, and then that takes you on your new course. And it grows from there. So you got to be prepared to just change, have a backup plan. In magic, they call it preparing your outs, there's always, if a trick goes wrong, the audience sometimes doesn't know it's gone wrong, because your out has saved you that you pre-prepared.
Right, and in making the change, have you had to explore your identity?
I think, in a way, yes. In terms of maturity, credibility, as well comes into it. What have I done in my life, that people are going to be interested in. 10 years ago, I was thinking about this, but I felt I'm too young, I haven't done enough. Lack of experience, lack of credibility, who's going to want to listen? So there's a bit of that self checking. But then, really, you just need to just take a look at yourself and look in the mirror and go well, I have got something that people want to listen to and want to hear about. And you just have to know that little bit more than everyone else in the room. And you're fine really.
Reflecting on what you're saying, and I've come across that myself. And I've spoken and written about it, this whole idea of imposter syndrome of self-doubt kicking in and I'm not good enough. That's what I reflect on what you were talking about? How have you overcome that? Beyond just looking in the mirror and going, Hey, Alex, you can do this. Anything else that you've done that has helped you overcome those doubts?
Probably practice. If I've doubted myself on something, then I've put myself out there to then try it, and see what response I get from it. And if it works, then you've got that validation, you need to know that well, I don't need to have that doubt anymore. And if it's not quite worked, then you need to do something else to shift that feeling. And it may be that you're just doubting yourself on the wrong thing. But everyone else's perception is totally fine.
Was there ever a fork in the road that you came to, when you had a choice, go down this route, this is probably what's going to happen, go down that route that's what's probably going to happen, and you have to make a choice about which path you took?
Certainly with either being, this was many years ago, being a professional magician, or getting a career outside of magic. I used to want to be a fulltime professional because it was the passion and still is a huge passion in my life, of course. But then there's the sensible me, that needs that stable income and needs something else as well. And also having your own business in the thing you're most passionate about. Potentially, there's the danger that you might lose the passion. And that's happened to a few of my friends, back in the UK, who are professional magicians, but on one of them particularly, has lost his passion for it, because of the pressure of having his own business on it. Right. So it's turned from a hobby into a job. Yeah. And I would never want to lose that particular drive and enjoyment of magic. So that was a fork in the road for a while now, I'm always going to have magic on the side. Accept that, and go and make a career for myself, that supports me and my family going forward. So that'd be a big one. And then, I guess nowadays, the fork is well, I'm at this point now where I want to tell my stories of leadership, and how magic has influenced me as a leader. And which road is best to go down to be more effective with that? Because I really enjoy what I'm doing in my career. And how can the magic enhance that? And bring in more enjoyment as well, at the same time?
What uncomfortable truths have you had to face?
That I'm not the best magician out there. When I was 16 years old... Because you thought you were? Yes. So when I was 16, someone, a mentor said, you've got sleight of hand ability to be one of the best magicians in the world. And I was 16. And I showed him a trick where I had a 50 pence piece that he examined, it's normal, 50 pence piece, etc. And I just put my finger through it. And it was my own method of doing it. And he, because I created it and performed it well, and he does the illusion of putting your finger through a coin and then passing it back to them to examine. He just said, You've got that ability to be one of the best in the world. So I then had a little bit of an ego trip and thought, well, I do. But there's certain things that I do that I know, it's up there. But to be at that level, you've got to be consistently good at all things. And so I've accepted that I'm not going to reach the Copperfield level and Derren Brown level and I'm content with what I'm doing right now. So that was probably a bit of a wake up call where in my teens I thought I'm going be David Copperfield. Didn't happen.
Now you're just Alex Moffat. That's right. Yeah.
Alex, I'm really grateful for the things you've shared. Are there any questions that I haven't asked, that you think I should be asking you to help inform others who want to make a big change?
I may have a think. What support have you got outside, to help you do it?
We need that kind of outer, immediate ring to help us with the ups and the downs in normal life stuff.
Yeah. Family. You know, my wife hates magic. Is that right? But she's still supportive of me. In doing it. Is that right? She really, actually hates the magic, because she's seen it for, we've been together 22 years. I don't show her tricks anymore. Because there's just no point she loses interest within two seconds. And so it's the kids now that get the magic if i've got to practice something. So yeah, What support have you got outside? So she's very supportive og it. But if I needed to practice a trick, I'd go to normal people outside my family or my children, of course, sometimes are a very good audience. And then professional support. You know, have you got a mentor that's guided you?
And does the mentor have to have, so as a magician, does the mentor have to be another magician? Or does the mentor have to be someone that's gone through a big change? Or is it a nonlinear mentor?
So for a magician, of any art musician, for example, as well, you'd want someone who knows a fair bit about that. So I've had a couple of magic mentors over the years. But as you know, Pete, having a diverse range of skills or having an interest outside of another interest is also broadens your mind and you get inspired and influenced and more creative by just being interested in other things. So having a mentor outside of magic is also very powerful, because they will see things that you don't, because as a magician, you're very linear, or as a musician, you're just thinking about music all the time. So having people who can help you in ways that you hadn't thought about, and that might be in a business sense, because show business is the show in the business. So you've got to be good at both sides. And someone else perhaps might be able to help you with the business side of things more in the marketing and the branding, the advertising, the connections, the networking, the stuff that you don't learn while you sat in your bedroom as a kid practising tricks.
Yeah, I noticed that online, you've started to share some of your stories on LinkedIn. What inspired you to do that?
So that was taking the plunge. So I'm not a storyteller. By nature. It's not something I've ever practised, structured way. So stepping out of my comfort zone to tell the stories of the experiences have gone through magic and how they have influenced me as a leader. So like I said, before, instinctively or deliberately been applied. And they're short stories, two minute, read three minute read type stories, where I'm just dipping my toe in the water now and seeing what response I'm getting, which has been overwhelming. I've been really pleased with the reactions from people that I know, but also people that I don't know, just coming out of the woodwork and validating that I'm onto something here. And the psychology of magic and business has been written about previously. It's not something that's new. But done in a storytelling way, is something that I'm trying.
Cool. And if somebody wants to connect with you, online, how do we find out more about Alex Moffat.
So there's my website, www.alexmoffat.com.au. And that's the magic website that's got a bit of what I do on the close up magic. And I talk a lot on there about enduring memories and creating memories, because that's what magic is about. It's not just turning up and showing a trick, it's about leaving that audience with something they'll remember for years to come. And, of course, on LinkedIn, I'm on there with my professional career profile. There's also a magic profile on there. But I'm more focusing on my career profile at the moment and weaving in the magic into that.
A thought that's just struck me is magic, predominantly visual? The reason I'm asking the question is obviously, this is a podcast. This is for listeners. Are there any auditory tricks?
There are, but it's predominantly visual. When it was first invented, if you like the the first tricks in the 1500s, is, you know, that starts with cups and balls and few card tricks. And that's what we still do now today, cups and balls and card tricks, along with a lot of other stuff. So predominantly visual, but there are now, with the obviously the COVID world we're in, magic's become a bit more virtual, which is still visual through a screen. But the magic is happening in the people's homes with their own pack of cards or their own object. They've got their own piece of paper. So they kind of create the magic in their own hands again, visually. And then there's a lot of mind stuff. So I suppose what we're talking about with Derren earlier, it's you watching a TV show, and it's visual, but the magic is happening in their minds. And so yeah, there's lots of psychological trickery that magicians can do as well, where you don't even need to have an object, you could just be talking to someone and helping influence them somehow.
And what that struck for me is that the psychological trickery we actually do on ourselves without realising we're doing it. And we're falling for tricks, in inverted commas, all day.
Every day, all day, just looking outside here is an illusion when it comes to perspective and objects of certain sizes and places and there's something called inattentional blindness that goes on every day all around us. So you and I just walking here will have missed a hell of a lot of things. Because we're focused on something else and when you put your attention so much on one thing, you miss something else that's going on. And that's why we have car accidents. While we might miss an opportunity in work because we're too focused on one task. So much, maybe with passion, too much heart that something else is going on, that really is important that you should've noticed. So that's just another form of misdirection or magic technique, but with our minds that happens in everyday life.
Alex, it's been a pleasure and personal geekery for me to chat a little bit about magic and also the steps you've taken. I'm going to finish if you don't mind with some quickfire questions. The idea being you've got to give me the first thought. I've planted a seed already in your mind and we're just looking for the first answer.
You could pull something out of a hat, rabbits or doves? Oh, I'd have to do the rabbit. The rabbit okay.
David Copperfield or David Blaine? David Copperfield has always been my hero. I still love David Blaine though. And if I had to meet someone today it would be, Copperfield.
Who's the best? Copperfield.
Who would you like to share a stage with? Is it the same answer? Probably Copperfield. Yeah. But there's a whole array like I'd love to meet Penn and Teller. You know, they're hilarious and very clever. I'd love to hang out with David Blaine. Just a very interesting person who does strange things. So yeah.
Final question. What's your favourite magic word? Are you trying to get me to say things like abracadabra? Expectation. Because we're all, like I mentioned earlier, it is illusion through expectation. That's the reason why we get tricked. Prior expectations.
Alex, thank you very much. Thank you for your time and thank you for your insight.
Thanks, Pete.
