Welcome to this week's edition of The Freedom Fridays podcast where I have a chap in front of me who we've only recently met relatively recently in our careers, and he's got an interesting story about something that I think many mums and dads will be interested to talk about. So, Dan Robins, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for having me. Nice to be here.
You're welcome. Dan, you've got an interesting, and I think, particularly relevant and passionate view on on a topic. So let's get straight into it. And I'm going to ask you, you're obviously a dad, you're a parent. How passionate you are about being the best dad, you can be?
Like, it's my, it's my number one thing. Which I would, I would hope to think most parents have the same view. And actually, for me, like, relatively, surprisingly so insofar as I always thought we'd have kids, and I was excited to be a parent, but also knew I probably had a selfish streak in me as well. And so always, perhaps, before Tilly arrive, wondered, how would it change me, I'll still be me, I still like, have my focuses of running or work or otherwise. And, and it's almost so cliche, but genuinely instantly, it becomes your whole world parenting, and being a better parent. And it's not that everything else falls by the wayside by any stretch, because you can't. But the reason for why work and why better my career becomes the why of well, that's providing and as being a good parent and a good not just a well putting food on the table, but actually showing what, what a good life lead.
And yeah, we'll get to topic in a second it staggers me. And I don't know if there's a solution to this. It staggers me that, in my view, the most important job that we ever play as parents. And I know there's plenty people who are not parents is being a mum or a dad or a carer or, you know, Guardian, wherever. And there's literally no playbook other than our own lived experience of good and bad. How come something so important to the future generations of everything is left to chance, and fingers crossed it staggers me that that's still the case.
And interestingly, alleged probably a bit further than that, there is so much, whether it's lefty or No, except for this extreme of like, semi-faux science that tells you, you must like, you must do these. And if you don't do these 2, 3, 4 things predominantly aimed at the mum and particularly in those early days, that you've got it completely wrong, when actually the lived experiences, you know, your child's you know at three in the morning or two in the afternoon, or whatever it is, you know, what's in front of you and what you need to solve for. And yet, you'll probably actually be made to feel incredibly guilty if you if you don't, whether that's I'm going to er on the dad's side, whether that's due, you know, in those early years, that's when I'm going to work exceptionally hard to ensure that then I'm available later in, or the flip side, actually, this is my moment. And I've decided I'm going to take a put on a step back from work, and be really in and hands on in those first few months or years aand then return to it later. The expectation that other people put on your offering that is so their opinion, or their faux-science as opposed to what's right for you and your family.
Yeah, I'm a parent of three older kids now. And I totally endorse that you kind of know what's right for your kid at the time. Whether it's the nutrition side, or the education side, or the hobby side or the discipline, whatever it is, you're probably not going to get it right all the time. But there's almost this unconscious kind of bias that we have, I just kind of know that my son would prefer that but my daughter would prefer this. And it's almost like intuitive, which kind of like goes against what I said about how come the most important job in the world has no playbook. Well because I need to be more intuitive and just kind of follow my sense. What's the right thing here?
Completely, completely.
Dan, let's get into topic because I think this will lead to other questions and comments and things to be conscious of. But tell us a little bit about your view about parental leave.
Yeah, what I'm very passionate about. And the background is, I, along with a couple of other passionate individuals, about six, seven years ago now launched a advocacy group called Seat At The Table. Now, I'll sort of describe what Seat At The Table stands for. And I should also mention in this, that we've certainly gone a little bit quieter recently in a sort of post COVID. We know people have had other things on their mind. But the, the basis for Seat At The Table is around, ultimately helping support the closure of the gender pay gap. In Australia, in particular, the gap between pay between men and women is a gap that isn't closing across industries, and it varies between different industries, but we're still at well over 100 years of closure rate that it would take to actually close the gap. But we also understand that there are a multitude of factors. But it is a very nuanced subject with lots and lots of different factors at play. But but one piece of data that we found is that from a study in Sweden that found that for every month that the let's say the secondary carer is predominantly the sort of male the dad but the secondary carer takes as parental leave early on in Bub's life. In totality, the mum then stands to earn an extra 6%, across a career. Which, you know, that just stands out as if there's extra 6%, you can put on on one half of the equation. Wow, like that, that's a real, it's going to be a good driver towards closing that gap. And then on top of that, there's, there's a multitude of other studies that talk to the value that come from a comes from having a more connected father, you know, there is, there's a lot of research and information around the skills gap that can that can come through, when a dad only has a week or two weeks or a couple of weeks, sort of off early on. And then he's back in the office or back back at work, leaving mum at home, doing all of the standard things, nappies and feeding and cleaning, and playing and developmental play, that dad just doesn't get to do doesn't get to learn how to deal with a nappy in the in the same way, because there's eight to nine hours, and he's not quite available. And those skills gaps then just grow and so then that becomes a misconnection at that place. The cliche of dad never cleans, never, he doesn't know what to do. And so, yeah, we're just very, very passionate and so I'm there was at the time when our daughter arrived, and I was sort of in that phase and I was lucky enough to work for a company at the time that offered a very generous paid parental leave for both parents, which i i took up and I really saw the good and the bad in that situation actually. So I saw the good of the connection that we had at home. The support I was able to give just the just the three that we were as a team was was really special and I think has been incredibly valuable as our daughters grown up. On the other side of it, I also then got just the lightest taste of what mums who take their parental leave go through in terms of the quips about your holiday that you're about to have the, you know, like the I worked for a very progressive company, but like 'Oh, it's not ideal that you're going to be off for so long'. The just a little bits of like, oh, when I returned to work, how what I might have missed. You know, actually my role was also made redundant at the end of my parental leave as well, which happens to mums all the time, like so often. And, and so I and that's not a woe is me story by any stretch, and I wouldn't challenge that per se. But yeah, that's a lot. And so just, as I say it's going through some of that experiences and understanding what returned to what looks like, balanced with how great and experienced is taking it. Where my passion now lies is around twofold, one, pushing businesses to improve their parental leave policies for the value for everybody that does and for their own business and what it what it can drive. But then also, one of the challenges that in all of this is, is less about it having policy because lots of businesses are rolling out great, improved policies via both parents being seen as primary or at least greater secondary carer leave. But actually a big challenge is getting the dads to take it. Getting the dads to feel, to break the almost the stigma of, oh, if I take the leaves, then my career we put on hold. Oh, what will I do is my time, how will I cope? And yet, whenever you speak to a dad, that's been lucky enough to be in a company that's already far down the journey, and take their leave. They have a similar lived experience to me, they absolutely loved it. Like they it's a great family experience. And you know whether that's just that you stay at home, and you're just literally living the home group thing and doing gymbaroo or Rhyme Time and so on. Or whether you take it as an opportunity as a family to go and do a great trip or, you know, go for a sea change or whatever. Yeah, there is such a positive that comes out of it with every dad that you speak to.
Sure. Maybe a kind of double barreled question, Dan, I'd be interested in your view. Has this happened because of the obvious reasons that you know, the mum being the child bear and the dad being the you know, that that old paradigm? Is that just kind of a hangover of that old paradigm? And is that what prevents, is that one of the reasons that prevents typically dads from taking any parental leave that that is in the policy?
Completely. I think I think it's a case of most of these policies are still quite new. For most businesses, so it's not the norm. They're probably more in favour of your sort of classic office job where there is equality in in, there's greater equality, at least in the work that's delivered. Those are also Yeah, then there's just that hangover stigma of mum stays home with kid, dad goes off to work in whatever format that that is. Whether that's, you know, pub chat, ribbing, or whether that's just an underlying feeling. And then particularly then career wise of that concern that often just sits in the back of practice, which, whether you're taking in a couple of months, six months, or even a full year off, that it shouldn't be ignored that that that is a long than it's an extended period to be away. Yeah. I mean, heck, I'm about to have three weeks holiday, and just in my three weeks holiday, there's projects that may move forward or may not. And I'm, you know, in the back of my mind and a little bit just what if I miss out on a thing? Now if you're a dad that has been very busy and constantly in and out and and achieving to then say, well, actually, I'm going to be off for three, six months. That that that same bubble of thought about what might I miss out on? Will I still get my bonus this year? Because I'll be able to, you won't be able to deliver in the same way. They're all really fair challenges. And it's certainly not to diminish that experience in that thought process.
You might not know down but I'm going to ask anyway. Did your dad take parental leave?
I don't believe so. Okay. Aside from the sort of probably the statutory that would have been available in the UK, sort of. Yeah, no, I don't think for the My father's an incredibly supportive dad. I've got a sister who's a few years younger than me, incredibly hands on, but in that 80s time, it just was less of a thing.
It's more of a philosophical question, because the question that I'm interested in discussing is so whether your dad did or didn't let's assume in the 80s, it wasn't relevant. He didn't. Do you think it's had an impact on you? And then the opposite is well, given you've probably I'm guessing you have taken parental leave for your youngest. What difference do you think it would make to her individually and as a family unit.
Yeah, good question, I think. Let's see. So there's a bit of a gap between myself and my sister. So I was nigh on an only child till I was what I was an only child till I was sort of seven or eight. And so you know, that that plays a factor in all of this. Did I do in that time as a child, lots of great stuff with my dad? Yes. Taking me to football two or three times a week going, climbing in Snowdonia, and similar, all of those things. But looking back as a kid was I and through until my teens were probably closer to my mum, I'd say I think so. You know, just in that general, like, my mind's eye of like who do I run to to give a hug, probably my mum, you know, those sort of thing. I know that. Now. I'm older. Is that rebalanced? Undoubtedly. Yeah. Now is my daughter closer to her mum, probably a bit too early, but I know that we have a very close relationship. And from that, whether it's the cuddles or they're doing stuff, we, I still have busy corporate job. So I'm, and I travel in that. So no, I'm not around now as much as my wife is around. But I'd like to think that we are, we are close. And a good chunk of that is for me being there in those early times. And particularly as I had two months, and then I had another four months, just as she was turning one that was the structure of how I had my leave. And at the very, very end of that, in that format, we did a seven week trip where we went from Sydney to Perth in a campervan, which is a one year old, she doesn't remember the specifics. She remembers the photographs, she sees the photographs. But it is an underlying like core memory, just as being a family group. And so I'd probably less say about. Net, I have a bigger relationship, but it's the it's now as a triangle, it says a family that actually has been a real win. And I think on top of all of that this was obviously all pre COVID, which then would probably set us up better to be around each other as much as we were. A year later, when COVID then hit. We'd had more time of me being solo, my wife being solo, we don't have a skills gap between because we've been through it predominantly together. Now is my wife a better parent? Undoubtedly. But that's, you know? Maybe? No, she definitely is.
I mean, my experience of that is, um, is totally unique to our circumstances, asnd so data point of one, my wife and I, as parents play different roles. Some of which are traditional, some of which aren't. And so I don't think either of us think are the ones the better parent, we just play different roles that over the years we've accepted as this is my bit of the role and this is your a bit of the role. Could we cross functionalise that? Yes. And we kind of we've chosen not to. I guess the the judgement anyone makes is we'll have your kids turned out? Yeah, that's the judgement. And then hence my question, or I wonder what difference it makes. If there's a couple of really interesting, provocative questions I'd like to ask. But first of all, is there any is there any one experimenting with an idea like this, and I'm coming from a place that from all sorts of angles, consistency seems to trump intensity? Yeah. So if it's an intense you get two months when the baby's done out, and then you get two months when it's one. Is there anyone experimenting with that same time allocation? Let's spread out over 16 years? Because actually, the thing some of the events that happen when they're 12 and the nine and the 16 are so significant, that with them Mum or Dad, either primary carer is not there yet, I think it has as much of an impact as what happens when the six months.
Yeah, the the policy that I was able to use was that it was six months over the first three years of the child's life and spread out no less than two months at a time. If I remember rightly, it may have changed since I've been away for four or five years. So, but I love the idea of almost long service leave style, but you know, being able to dip into a pool to be able to obviously the decent probably corporate challenges too. But the that thought of Yeah, that's we as having a daughter are terrified for the early teen years. Oh, yes. When we look at but whereas we look at friends with boys were actually these are the intentions the toddler years and and early school years are the intense yearswhen they've just got like that bundles of energy and probably do need an extra pair of hands works. Whereas later so perhaps with a girl be able to do whatever will be needed then but more as a team. That's a really interesting idea. And yeah, I fit but it comes back to your point before around is this the hangover from just those very traditional roles. 100%. And the rollout of these policies are to rebalance that period where really parental leave is to manage for the period where babies completely needs to be within the family nest and so completely dependent.
So yeah, it's also philosophical for me, then gets me into this philosophical thought process, right? So what's the purpose of life? What's the purpose of work? What's the purpose of parenting? You know, as an anecdote, as my kids are older, I don't remember doing this when there were, you know, your daughter's age. But because of my background in performance and potential, I would nudge and push and take my kids to the line, and often go over it. Because that's only when we know where the line is, but with an unconditional love and compassion for them as humans, but if I don't do that, I feel I'm deserving them because they're not going to be experienced and how to deal with stuff that we know happens as adults.
Completely. And it's interesting to that point before of like, life changing when they arrived. For me, I've really found that the change of not only why do I work, I still have the personal ambitions that are about me and for me, and what I get out of work. But even things like running, I'm a relatively keen runner. That changed, that has changed insofar as again, I get a lot of value out of running - mental health benefits, fitness, just the enjoyment of being out, particularly on the trails in the hills. But it's also about showing my daughter that, like, this is excellent. Exercise is good for you. And it's not just a chore, and we all have to do PE. It's it can be really enjoyable and you can really enjoy it. Whatever that version is my wife does Pilates again, she's really talks up the value of how it makes her feel that she's getting stronger. That and so more recently, I'm quite keen park on a Saturday morning, I'm one of those. But again, like not every week, it's not like Tilly has to join me every single week. And some of that's a little bit of my own selfishness because I want to run at my pace some weeks, but I do try and coax her to come and and and pushing her to probably at six maybe doing the full 5k's is a push. But it's the daddy thing that is good for health good for mental. It's out in the sunshine. It's together. That's yeah, I think for me this all comes back to the fact that we are at that depths of our relationship. It's early on. Yeah.
Maybe a couple of sceptical or sceptics views, questions that I'd love you to how you would address these Dan. Many people that I relate to and speak to and work with. Often will claim they have a fairness bias. And it seems that humans can have sense I don't like it, but it's fair. How do you handle the voiced or unvoiced concern from those people that either can't have kids, or choose not to have kids. But there's many people in that bucket. How do you present the benefits that you get? Because, again, there's a bias and even that language. How do you present your parental leave as fair to those that would love to but can't have kids. Or but I don't want kids. So, how do you handle that argument?
That's a, that's a really good one. And I think some of that, you're all, you're all this into the sort of work environment of is now going to be an extra, let's say, 50% of workforce that are going to be taking multiple months off. On top of what already you would you would at any given time have from from mums taking parental leave. There is that first and foremost, is that a necessity from government to improve the support for business and the underlying sort of incentives to allow that the the sort of cost of it doesn't then just rest wholly with businesses. So then that will allow them to then not have to wear the costume quite the same way. And so then that isn't then just a case of oh, well, John's about to take six months off that workload will just have to get shared around the team. So that's one trench here. And so then it, it starts to fall a little bit more towards like, well, it's not going to affect the rest of team because we'll be able to get in a resource or we'll be able to claim the benefit. And so the books will be will be balanced that way. But that's very much the standard. And we're always away from the start point is predominantly businesses, seeing the general corporate upside. And so, but more or less, so
Big corporate, great, the business might benefit. And that might go well, net net, it's you know, we're contributing to society. It's part of our purpose. net, net financial blah, blah. All good. Yeah. I'm going to make - I can't have kids would love to have kids, how come you get? And it's almost like it's an unfair bits of binary argument. How can you get six months off more than I do?
Yeah, no, I think that's a really, really a fair challenge that I don't think I have an answer for at the moment.
Yeah, I wouldn't know how to answer tha
It's feels at the moment, like it's probably in a similar bucket to the smoke break. A far more macro level, right? Yeah, he's a person that takes three times 15 minutes across the day, and then goes and has lunch or whatever. And I don't smoke. And I now work. What that how's that fair? It's in that bucket. And I, in all honesty, I don't, I don't have an answer. Outside of I think probably as a society, as we get more inclusive of these sorts of things, there is probably a solution that someone with a bigger brain than me could come up with that is still then useful to that individual. And that's and I would not want to be as crass as to say, well, you know, as well as having the parentally policy, however, when you get a dog policy, or when you like, it's quite often with corporates that's what this gets rolled up and moving, how she can have a day off. These are all lovely policies, they really are. And of course, like when you get a dog, particularly a puppy, like it's a bonkers few weeks, and so being able to take that up is great, but it should definitely not be rolled up in this because it's not like for like at all. So yeah, unfortunately, I don't have to answer it. But I think it's a really good challenge of because those people shouldn't be left out by any stretch. And, and that's not just for the well, I don't want to have kids. It's a sea of those. I've seen it in offices, where you can almost tell when there's that either parent, male or female, and there's parent chat going on, and they just sort of curl up a little bit, the shoulders slump. And those non-parents in that way should be fully supported, of course, and this shouldn't be a divisive thing. It should be a benefit.
The other i guess sceptics question would be, like you have worked for many big corporates over the years. I now what for myself, and it's certainly less significantly less glamorous than it's made out. You know, be your own boss. You've got to do everything right. It's pretty hard and I'm paint this scenario for me, I'm a small business owner, it's me plus my assistant, whether that's a man or woman or doesn't matter, and that person takes is allowed to take. Because that's a government thing, not a corporate thing. Three months for the first four years of how do you is there an addressable challenge to that? Because as a small business owner, I'm kind of going while I'm supporting my family. Not even my ambition, right? Forget my ambition. Actually, I'm trying to put food on the table for my children. How is that fair? Is there a is there a response to the practicalities of that challenge?
Yeah, for me, that's, that's, again, that needs to be a governmental support structure,
It's not a corporate thing, it's a government thing. Yeah.
To extend the incentives and rebates for business to be able to support like it, that's the only way like, for those types of economic failures as it would be ultimately, that's like, that's the role that government plays. And that's, so that's relatively direct, but that that should be the solution. And we don't really have that we have had some extensions in the government funding, but it's not yet at the level where it would allow for, like, for likes, but for that small business. And to be back to an extent at corporate like, shouldn't shouldn't be either way. But yeah. Completely known issue definitely of small business where it's kind of just the work can't just be swallowed up by the masses, or was really just we'll just wear it for a bit. Yeah, of course, a challenge, but that's where yes, governmental intervention is to come. And it is the case with policies that are in particularly Scandinavia. Government has stepped in and and have that policy and support.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so that sounds like a really, you know, paid parental leave for mums and dads. It's a really long term economic valuable thing to be considering. And yet, even just those two questions are unfairness and small business, it seems that there's some significant hurdles to overcome.
Yeah, definitely. And I think where we, where we came from was, clearly in Australia, small businesses, obviously such a big portion of the economy. However, by pushing more and more corporates to solve and to offer, and then not just we have policy, but it's a PR thing, and we just sort of keep it in the back pocket, actually, and really drive it through with dads to use and parents, and it been normalised in their businesses. That does at least make a a leap forward in normalising it across the population and moving away from what you described. That does one thing members, the other, and then also will then go a step forward to then creating the grounds for where we can change government policy.
Okay. Maybe on a slightly lighter note, what's the what's the benefit for men? Again, I'm being really, you know flat around, if it's the paid parental leave for dads, that there's obviously paid parental leave for women who, you know, all that sort of stuff. But let's go with the tradition of it for a moment. I'm interested in what's the what's the benefit for men? And I don't mean, just dads, I mean men as the role that they play or want to play. What's the benefit there? What have you enjoyed as a benefit of having it?
So I've made me roll back to first off my, my fear was around what I'd miss out on work and taking that loss. And in all of this, I should say, my role was made redundant in this period. So I had the full loss.
in circumstantial. Sorry, circumstantial, you're always made redundant, purely circumstantial?
Yeah. Probably can't really go too much into the depths of it, but like, a fear that I had beforehand was sort of realised at the most extreme level. That bit all of that being said I think often we fear As a, like, we look so short term and we miss out on this, you know, nobody wants to lose their job, of course, but like, I might miss out on this year's bonus. Or I might miss out on that project that will then maybe helped me get onto that team, or that will make me look good and then that'll help me towards my promotion next year. But we have a 40 year career, 45 year career, and actually, those two to three to six months. Overall, nothing in this game, very, very low, low weight in the scheme that is all rebalanceable and re-workable. For the opposite of like, yes. Once you get out of it, I've got six months not working and paid. If nothing else like that. That's a real, like, there's so much mental health benefit in that of just taking out of your head, all mundane, doing email, stuff that then you're able to just point all of that energy into your family life. Yeah. You know, so what did I get out of it? Well, I did. I got we did our big trip, as I mentioned before. But then I also got to go to gymbaroo. And see her learning like, week on week learning this stuff like she was learning to walk at the time, and I was there not just like, coming home from work. Guess what she did today? Took a took a step like I was actually helping her on a real like core developmental thing. You know, some words some, you know, and yeah, actually in those in those days, because my wife was going back to work and she was, so we were also doing the starting the first days at preschool. Sorry, daycare, sorry. So I was like, I was able to be part of that, you know,
Like solidify the family unit completely.
And even, again, not having the work thing hanging over my head. I did some study at that time as well. Yeah, like, there was so much value that just taking out 50 hours a week of like, oh,
Look, my bias on this Dan would be for me, the strong, healthy family unit is one of the bedrocks of the good life and good society.
Yeah. And I feel like we set, we set some really good habits in place at that time. You know, it's the time when she was or she was moving into solids and eating. And so we were building then the bedrock of that we all eat together and sit around the dinner table, not every single night because there's this kind of but that is still a core of how we eat as a family. Not saying that needs to be everybody's but so as you say, that bedrock family unit that I think we created.
Dan, it's been fascinating for me, because my kids are older. So the idea of parental leave, you know, has passed me by. But I'm expecting at some point in the future, my kids might want to have kids and so it becomes more and more relevant. So thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you for reminding me and raising and making me aware of issues I just wasn't aware of, despite some of the huge challenges that it's faced with. I might ask you one final question. If you could offer any piece of advice to mums or dads or primary or secondary carers, given your experience, what what would the piece of advice be?
If you could maybe stretch to get them to the first would be? I'll give you the first would be if your employer doesn't have policy - it's an ask why not? It's it's a support the advocacy first and foremost. Yeah. Then the second is, if you're on the fence about taking it, there's only one side of the fence. It's take it because every night and I don't want to diminish people's situations or circumstances but in most situations, if you're on the fence, then probably the worst stuff, the keeping the roof over their head, the dinner on the table types of it's probably managed for you probably okay. And all of your fears of stepping into the taking are probably just that, they're just fears as opposed to truths. And the upside of the unknown of having that time together. You only get it you only get that chance once and, it will go. And the upside is so high, and it's so good. I am genuinely haven't spoken to anybody. And probably there's a bit of bias in that, but still have their answer being god it's so good. I loved it. .
And Dan, where can people find out more about Seat at the Table?
There's, we have a LinkedIn page. As I said earlier, it's a little bit more stalled for the moment.
not anyone exploring. Yeah. And
Also feel free to just reach out to me on LinkedIn. Happy to have chats.
Dan, thank you. I know you've got a trip planned later on today. So good luck with the travelling and thank you for sharing your own experience and perhaps a more, a better way forward for us as a society and certainly parents and families.
Hope so, thanks for having me.
You're welcome.
