Welcome to this week's edition of freedom Fridays podcast, where this week, I've got someone to chat to. And I'm going to be a little bit indulgent. It's actually an interest of mine. So forgive me if I ask questions that I'm really interested in. And I hope that you are too. But the person I'm speaking to is a longtime colleague. I've known my guests for about 20 odd years. And he described himself as an unlikely mindfulness teacher, which we're going to explore. So Paul, welcome to the show.
Thank you very much, Pete. Great to be here. Looking forward to having this conversation with you. A bit of a different one.
Yeah, good. So Paul, I'm going to pick up on the first thing you said, you're an unlikely mindfulness teacher. Tell us a little bit about that first.
Yeah, I describe myself as a unlikely mindfulness teacher, because what I do now is teaching people things like you know, being present mindfulness really slowing down. But if I was to wind the clock back a number of years, I would have been one of those people that was exceptionally I don't know if sceptical is the right word about things like meditation. But I just always thought that's not something you would ever catch me doing. I never really saw the point in it. I thought, it's what people do to kind of run away from their lives and just pretend that everything's okay. And the way that I got into mindfulness, as I now know, so many people do was through a period of extreme stress and suffering, and a bit of a opportunity to try mindfulness by the way of a mindfulness 30 Day Challenge. And because I was in a situation at that time, where I thought, I don't know what else to do, I just need some form of help to feel better, I'll give it a go. And as I gave it a go, my eyes were opened to what it was actually all about what meditation was actually all about. And in a relatively short space of time, 30 days, my eyes were open to the point where I thought this is actually really helping me and could be a significant direction for me to now go. I, when I say I was sceptical about it before, I I, for many, many years, in my younger years, and certainly in my early career, I was someone who was very interested in personal development, that came about by being an individual that really struggles with anxiety, low moods, I had many episodes of depression. And because back in the day, we didn't really talk about mental health, like we do. Now, my way of dealing with that was to just try anything to lift myself out of a slump. So I would study anything to do with personal development, anything about peak performance, behaviour, change all of that. And these strategies do kind of work, you know, if you really start to take charge of your own state and use a number of techniques, you can get yourself to feel better. And so that kind of became my, my modus operandi. Anytime I would feel down anytime I feel anxious, a bit depressed, I would rely on these techniques to manage my state lift myself out of the mood. And I found that I could keep myself pretty much above the line most of the time. But inevitably, the moment you stop doing that, those slumps come back, but it's all it was always okay, because I could just work it again. And it got to the point, you know, we you and I have been in the same field for a long time. And a lot of these techniques. We teach it to two leaders, and they are brilliant techniques. But it got to a point where my wife and I, we had recently adopted a little boy, we had a baby, baby boy at home. Things were really busy from a work perspective, many, many sleepless nights because we've had a newborn at home, and it got to the point where I was so depleted, that the techniques weren't working anymore. And so, so I found I've got I got to a point where I think, you know, I didn't really know what burnout was, at that time. But if I, if I, if I came close to burnout that's as close as I've ever come when I just felt really lost really desperate and needed something. And that's when this 30 Day mindfulness challenge, like came along, and gave me a different view of what does it mean to take care of yourself when you're in those moments of particular stress and suffering?
Yeah, when it's when it's raining, not just when it's the sun shining? That's interesting. Paul, you're probably familiar with 21 whispers, which is the philosophy that I've, you know, the name is about a life whispers to us. And we tend to only do something when it shouts and the 20 ones an arbitrary number can be six, it can be formed in 62. So I'm guessing the desperation and suffering was the metaphorical 21st Whisper. Yeah, and the story, the challenge with the Kinect thing that got you to do something, to take action, on reflection,
have that what other things were happening historically, that were kind of either causing the scepticism of oh, that's rubbish, that that's crap, you know, blah, blah, blah? Or was there? Was there anything else that was quite intriguing? But I didn't admit it? Was there any whispers on the way that you can recall?
I think looking back, there was probably many, many whispers. I think where this scepticism may have come from is, you know, I grew up in a generation and a family group that weren't particularly good, it's expressing their emotions, and it was very much a stiff upper lip, or if someone was having a little bit of an issue with their mood, it would be hard, it will be alright. Don't you know, don't pull your socks up, it will be fine. And so I think that the quite an ingrained level, any time, I would see things like meditation and people being really vulnerable and open, it kind of go, that that family message would pour out of me going, Oh, come on, pull your socks off. Just just get on with it. I'll be alright. This is this is all a little bit woowoo. A bit, a bit too, bit too fluffy. But, on the other hand, quite paradoxically, I think even from an early age, I was already asking bigger questions around how is how are we all kind of connected from I would never have used the word spiritual. At that time in my life, it was just a case of, isn't it a bit bizarre that we all think that we're the separate individuals just doing our own thing, when really surely this has to be part of some big joined up connected thing. And I never had the language for that I never had any kind of direction with which to explore those questions. But I think those were the kinds of whispers along the way that primed me for when my suffering became strong enough to the point where I gave mindfulness and meditation ago, suddenly, those whispers or dots kind of all joined up. Yeah. And I thought, Ah, now I've got a way to explore this in quite a quite a structured way. And so I think through mindfulness, I've certainly I've certainly started to understand myself so much better, really started to understand something quite truthful about the human condition. But also it gives an opportunity to really explore some of those bigger questions about you know, the wholeness and the completeness of everything, too.
I'm intrigued Paul, do you remember your first question, or the first was spent? You remember how old you were and what the start or question was, despite not having the language?
Yeah, I don't, I wouldn't be able to pinpoint an age but it was pretty young. Right? It was pretty I remember being I'm thinking maybe around even as young as six or seven, right, lying in bed one day, and feeling a little bit. I don't know maybe I was overwhelmed with school or something like that. And just something popped into my head. That said, but all of these thoughts and all of these feelings that They're just happening. You don't have to actually do anything with them. And it was it was really I don't know where that came from. But even as a six or seven year old around about that time, I was thinking, that's that space that you can go into seems like a little bit of a refuge, that when things get a bit overwhelming, there's another way, there's another part. And I now know this to be, you know, just looking at things from the point of view of your awareness, rather than being lost in a thought or lost in the emotion. Just taking the perspective of just being aware of it or without being wrapped up with it. I think there was a part of me that kind of understood that very early on. But of course, I didn't know that that was a thing. And I certainly didn't share it with anyone else. And that stayed with me. And I carried that along with me for a number of years and all the way through adulthood. Just thinking that I was the only person that would think in this particular way, so I never talked about it. I thought that don't be so silly. And, yeah, and so that that was probably one of the first times when I would now you know, to your question, that would have been a bit of a whisper.
And I don't even know if there's an answer to this. But do you think everyone goes through that? And some allow it to thrive and some suppressor?
Oh, no, that's a good question. I, knowing what I know, now, my own journey, and also supporting others through similar mindfulness journeys, is I think that there is a part of each of us that kind of intuitively gets it. Right, but to the point where it ever bubbles up enough for many people to even notice that it's there. I think that some do, some, some will go their entire lives, and never really make that met that connection. But it's one of those things that when you have an opportunity to sit down, you know, if someone comes to me as a client, from a mindfulness point of view, we have that opportunity to do you know, to do a little bit of pointing out of, you know, isn't it interesting that when you become aware of your experience in this way, there's something quite familiar that that's always been there that we may not have seen before. So when you get the opportunity to look in that direction, you kind of see something that's always been there. But I think so many people just will never really think to have that opportunity or even a reason to explore it. So it's yeah, it's an interesting question. I don't know. But that's my hunch.
I'm gonna assume I think I don't have the answers. But I'm interested in you explaining why do you think they're missing out? By not being aware of learning and having that as part of their way of living?
I would say that, it depends. It really does depend
more on human conditions.
Exactly. And it's a real Kochi answer, isn't it? The reason I say it depends is because if someone is going through their lives, having had, you know, a wonderful upbringing, some great life experiences. And yeah, of course, there's going to be ups and downs. Life is always a roller coaster. But if on balance, someone is really enjoying their life, and they get to the end of their days, look back and think that was a life well lived. Never heard anything about mindfulness or spirituality or anything, they got to the end of it, and they had a great life, then, then happy days. I think for those that reach certain moments in their lives, where they, they really start to struggle and suffer because of all the trials and tribulations of life. I think that to not have the opportunity to see the world through a wider, more mindful perspective is is a shame. Because it's, it's available. It's available. One of one of the things I would love to do through my work is just to make that opportunity available to a lot more people.
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. And then, you know, you explore the idea of human condition. And it's hard to break free from that.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that the one thing, one thing we all have in common is we suffer from psychology, right? You know, it works. Are human can our human condition is the one thing that connects and binds us binds us all. And in I think what the way that we've evolved as a species is the way that we've evolved is great for keeping us alive, great for keeping the species going. But it's rubbish for keeping us happy. And you know, our evolution doesn't really have a vested interest in our in our happiness. And I think that there is there is a way for us. Yeah, exactly, exactly. It makes sense. If you are going to design a system to stay alive and to and to keep thriving, it makes sense to make it fearful of anything that could potentially get in the way of its its mission. So that's what we're battling
with. Just now, Paul, I'm sure there are many people listening who will have heard of mindfulness. And whether it's just, it's a catch all phrase could be maybe just explore is, for example, is meditation part of mindfulness is mindfulness part of meditation? Or it doesn't even matter. What is it?
Yeah, it's really interesting. It's, it's one of those big questions that people have when they're introduced to it, because they know they hear mindfulness and they hear meditation. And is it the same thing? What I what I would say that meditation is a, I guess, you could say, is the technique, or is the training grounds that we would use and learn to develop as a way to access more mindfulness. But that doesn't mean to say that meditation itself is mindfulness, mindfulness is really the quality of being that we look to cultivate. So the definition that I like to use for mindfulness is, it's paying attention to our present moment experiences, whether that's internally or externally, with an openness, a curiosity, and a willingness to just be with what is. So it's really about switching off that autopilot that we tend to be on most of the time, going from a doing mode into a being mode, and just being able to observe our experience without being caught up and carried away with it and overwhelmed by it. So it's a bit like the difference between being lost in your thinking, and just being aware that you are thinking, or being caught up in an emotion in the body, or just having that that curious observation that there is sensation that there is emotion in the body there is. So I might be feeling anxious. But when I bring mindful to that anxiety, I recognise that the awareness of the anxiety itself isn't anxious. So anxiety is there. But I'm coming at it in a point of awareness that isn't anxious, so I can be with it rather than lost in it. And we use meditation as a way of settling the system and being able to get still and observe it in that way. Right.
That's a great explanation, Paul, thank you. Let me ask maybe a philosophical question. Yeah. So I would often with clients in the limited experience I have of teaching mindfulness, help them make this distinction between the difference between having thoughts and being had by the thoughts.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I get it again. Again, no, if that's true, if we are the observer, if we are the witness, or mindfulness is part of that being the witness. I'm assuming this if you possibly can, if we're not our thoughts, and our thoughts are talking to us, doesn't that mean there's two things involved? So if it's not, if we're not our thoughts, who we talking to? And who's the witness? And yeah, let's kind of discuss.
It's it's one of those big, big questions, isn't it to explore? You Yeah. So in terms of codes, so if we're not our thoughts, what is is doing the, what's doing the knowing? And that is a question that I posed to my clients all the time. Now, it's not going to be on session one, by the way. No, when we're when we're a little ways down the line. A question that you might drop into a meditation is so what what is the eaten known right now. So it could be okay. So I'm knowing a thought is being known. And then another question would be a case of what or who? Or who, or what is doing the knowing of that thought. And what's really interesting in this is, you know, wasn't expecting to go quite this deep so soon. But what's really interesting is that when you turn awareness on itself, so you tried to get awareness to be aware of awareness, you start to notice that there is no, there's there's no centre to it. So you think where it can? Can I locate Paul, in here somewhere? I've got an idea of Paul, I've got a story of Paul, but when I start to look for whereabouts in this whole experience is Paul, I can't find it. Yeah, you can't find it anywhere. And what this that it can be, for some people, it can be our my word that is just totally shifted the way, you know, I think about you know, how I'm experiencing all of this anxiety, and it can be quite comforting, because what that means is that we don't become as identified with it, and we can let go of some of that. And for other people that can be quite unsettling. Because I'm so we all are, we're so hooked up in our identities. That, to think that actually will there's no, I don't actually exist anywhere in here, other than a story I've got about myself, is can be quite big. So yeah, there's the thought. And there's the awareness of the thoughts or who's doing the knowing of the thought. Just I'd say just have a look. Just try and investigate, try and find it. And the phrase, which takes a little bit of sitting with, but eventually you realise that the not finding is the finding.
Okay, now you're blowing me away.
Yeah, right. Didn't expect it.
Okay, I can see I can I can accept philosophically why that could be the case. Or at least hold the possibility that that could be the case. And I guess I'm not speaking anything here. I guess that's part of the philosophy. Right. Is that not finding is? Well, that's the point. Yeah, yeah. That's the point. Yeah,
it's, I think one of the ways in which that realisation can end up being quite helpful to individuals, when they're going through a hard time is because we we sit with our thoughts, so often, and our thoughts can be quite difficult to be with sometimes the way that we relate to our circumstances to what's going on, is, you know, so much of the suffering comes through the identification and the need the ownership, we take off them. In mindfulness times, we might think of the mind and thoughts as being like a sixth sense. So in the same way, as we know, we've got our five senses. And that's how we experience the world. From a mindfulness point of view, we would include the mind itself as being a sixth sense, because it's just happening. And we can it shaping the way in which we experience our lives and our circumstances and all of that. But it's happening in the same way that when we open our eyes, seeing happens, I don't get to choose whether or not I see what's in front of me, I opened my eyes and it's there. If a sound was if a you know, a loud noise was to happen, you know, over in the distance, as soon as it goes off, I cannot not hear it, I don't get a choice about that. And it's the same with our minds, our minds will be active, and we don't get a choice whether they're active or not. We just We just received that. But what's different with our minds versus a sound is we don't necessarily identify with the sound that we've heard. But we will identify with whatever the mind froze up, and we feel that it's us. I now take this personally, I've identified with it. And so much of our suffering and heartache comes through that process of identification. So when we can start to look what's actually what's really going on, is our thoughts coming up. I know I can see where this identification is happening. And we learn to let that go. We just hang out as the awareness of it. We start to it starts to move from being this concept. We are not our thoughts to us, it starts to become your your felt experience that you're not your thoughts. And that's when things start to shift.
It's maybe our linguistic thing here, but I'm wondering if if we get practised enough. And we don't pick up the thought, then there's nothing to let go.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's going to come. But it will come, it will peak, and it will fade. And if at any time, you're not picking it up, getting yourself wrapped up in it, then it's just it's like, you know, the metaphor we use is, it's like a cloud passing over the sky. And you yourself, you your awareness is the sky. And all the thoughts are just clouds that pass a pass across it. But so often we identify with being the clouds themselves, part with
your study and experimentation or understanding of mindfulness, and the human condition. Do you have any views on? What? Why do we do this to ourselves? Because it seems it's ubiquitous across everyone, to some degree, everyone causes to some degree of their own suffering. Why?
Yeah, it's, I mean, why is that is quite a tough question to answer, I think it has a lot to do. I think it has a lot to do with that evolution question. And it makes sense, from an evolutionary point of view, if evolution just wants, just wants to get your genes into the next generation, to err on the side of caution, and to try to eliminate all threats. So one way that we do that is to become anxious and frightened of anything that could potentially get in the way of doing that. But you know, when we actually start to break down, where is the, the actual suffering coming from, it's coming less from what's actually going on, and more because of the mechanics in our minds, which is so heavily conditioned to grasp at things that we haven't got, you know, to crave for things that we haven't got. So if I, if there's something that I haven't got the I believe that I need, and I haven't got it, there's suffering there, because I'm craving for it, and I haven't got it. It also comes from the mental move of trying to resist and push away things that are already here, but we don't like so there's suffering there, as well. And it also comes through, you know, the things that we've got that we like, that we become overly attached to. So for example, in the reason why attachment creates so much suffering is because we live in a world that is constantly changing, and everything is on the move. And anything that we become attached to is, is at some point, going to either change or go away or break. And it sounds it's makes, it sounds a little bit McCobb. But when you know through the, I guess the mindful investigation and this learning to let go, we start to become in into a much more peaceful relationship with the way things are. So which is why in mindfulness, there's a lot of practising on being very accepting, being able to allow things to come allow them to allow them to go doesn't mean that you can't really enjoy your life. You can enjoy your life beautifully. You can savour it, but while you're savouring it, you're savouring things while they're here. Yeah, allowing them to leave when they need to leave. And you do that with with with patience and acceptance. Yeah.
Paul, let's lift it up a little bit. For anyone who's listening, who suffers, you know, anxiety or worry. In the practice of mindfulness, first of all, what are some of the big mistakes that they make?
Yeah, I think the when folks are practising mindfulness or meditation for the first time, is to think that the goal of meditation is to sit down, or mindfulness is to sit down and to clear your minds have any thoughts in the big the big number one reason why people say, Oh, I can't meditate, or I've tried that, and it didn't work for me, is because they sat down and they just experienced a very normal human mind doing what all your normal human minds doing, which is they go bonkers. Even more sit down and you think that the idea is I've got to clear my mind or thought and your mind will just go nuts, the moment you sit down, it will go nuts. So when we were first learning mindfulness is really about getting used to the fact that it's not about clearing your mind of thought, it's just about becoming aware of when the mind is thinking, and then having the move of bringing it back to something to you know, on something that you want your attention to be on. Now, normally, that will be some neutral anchor, like the sensations of breathing. So you sit down, you notice the breath, you pay attention to the feelings of the breath, and you just have the intention for your attention to stay there. Now, it's inevitable that your mind is going to move away and go into a thought or get distracted by a sound or, or some sensation happening in the body. And the moment you notice that, we don't judge it, we just noticed that it's happened in the movies to bring it back to the breath. I, I liken this to I've got a free step formula for getting good at anything. And it's this is my success formula is he'll set an intention. Yeah, get distracted. Begin Again. So how do we get good at having a less distracted mind is we set the intention to place our attention on something and keep it there. Yeah, that too is you will get distracted. So you get distracted step two numbers, you get distracted, step two, complete, successfully done. And then step three is you begin again. So the more you're willing to notice that you've been distracted, and begin again, you set yourself on a trajectory of just being able to master it over time. So it's not about how how, how long can I stay focused on one thing without getting distracted? It's how many times am I willing to notice it and begin again? Because most of the time, what do we do when we sit? We set an intention to get good at something we set off on this on this kind of this role? In the moment we get distracted? We get our wasn't very good at that. And then we stop.
Yeah, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. That's so powerful. Very good. I'm asking for a bit of a reveal. I'm happy to go you asked me a question about this to being a mindfulness teacher, obviously, you know, lots. And I put myself in the same field of I know lots about the stuff I teach about all the kind of leadership stuff mindset stuff. And yet, I still find it so hard to apply. Are you the same? Do you find mindfulness hard to apply despite the practice? And so therefore I cannot I'm asking myself the question, are you? What's the point? Why am I doing this? When you can I can after 25 years? Apply it when I'd like to overtime? Yeah, yes.
The answer to that is yes. It's interesting. You you'd imagine someone who teaches mindfulness professionally to think well, yeah, I've got it nailed earned. And it's just something that I love to do all the time. Do I struggle with mindfulness? Yes, I do. And particularly when times are tough. Yeah.
As in, as in times are tough externally. The environment.
Times are tough externally. Yeah, exactly. I've got a little boy, he's not a baby anymore, but he still seems to be allergic to sleep. And on those days, where we've all had a bit of a disrupted night, I found that on the days when I'm really really tired the next day, it is more of a challenge to hold on to that mindfulness throughout the day. It is it is a challenge. And, but it's also why we call it a practice, it's a practice for a reason, because it's not something that you ever really reach a final destination with. It is when you apply the practice, you notice you cannot not notice the benefits of applying it. When you stop applying it. It stops working and our natural human conditioning will start to take over again. So I would I say, when it comes to practising mindfulness, the only discipline you really need to for let's say, it's for meditation. The only discipline plan you need is to get your bum on a seat. The moment you've managed to sit yourself down, you're already there. And then the practice will start to take over. But then there's other little things that you can do throughout the day as well and on the days where mindfulness may be nice Don't think that isn't a top priority, because you're feeling really, really stressed is to keep it as simple as possible. So you know, it may or may not be that you're going to sit down and meditate for 20 minutes, it might be that you're just going to take a five minute break with a cup of coffee, stand outside, fill your feet on the floor, and just bring your attention to the, to your sentences. And just ask yourself the question, you know, in terms of my experience, what's here right now? And just asking that question can be enough to lift you out of the automaticity of the day. And you might notice, while what's what was here right now, is that I was just being carried along on automatic pilot, feeling like the world was happening to me. But now I've taken this five minutes with a cup of coffee, I can fill my body, fill my feet on the floor, I can feel my breath, I noticed my thoughts, just asking the question can be enough to just bring you back into a sense of presence. And that reconnects you with a bit sense of agency. That's not to say that it's necessarily going to put you in a wonderfully positive mood. All it means is that you can, whatever mood you find yourself in, you can be with it comfortably, without or comfortably may be the wrong word, but you can be with it with acceptance, and a sense of patience, rather than trying to resist it, fight against it. And when you do that, then you'll find that the system naturally starts to reset itself. Because we're no longer continuing to feed it with our, I guess, our swirling minds.
Yeah. I'm assuming Paul, this is an ancient practice, as it has been practised by many before us. Why does it seem like it's become more prominent in the last 10 years?
Well, you're right, it is an ancient practice. So as it mindfulness, as we teach it today has its roots in Buddhist traditions, which is, you know, going back 2600 years, and probably a lot longer before then. So it has this huge history, but why are we only really hearing about it in the last couple of decades, and in the last 10 years, very much. So. I think a lot of that has to do with, you know, the, the extent to which it's been studied scientifically. So that, you know, prominent neuroscientists and psychologists have given mindfulness a huge amount of attention, since it started to migrate to the west, you know, probably about 40 odd years ago. And now, the data is very encouraging. So it's all of the research suggests that having a regular mindfulness practice, when that's combined with meditation, has many significant health and well being benefits, just one of them being it can, mindfulness meditation can be as effective as any antidepressant drug, without having the you know, all the side effects. It really helps us to, you know, to reduce our level of stress, people find it, it helps them to sleep much better, brilliant for those that have chronic pain, where there is no real medical solution for their symptoms. But mindfulness gives them a way of relating to the discomfort of their pain in a really useful way. And when you ease the system allows a lot of those symptoms to start to reduce as well. So I think that there is a lot from the scientific point of view that is helped to promote mindfulness. But also the way that the world is today as well. It seems over the last last five years, particularly with the pandemic more people moving online, we're just we're always on, you know, always being to come always in demand. And I think that with each of us are living life at a pace that is faster than we can comfortably digest it. Yeah.
Like the theory of those. There's a an equal and opposite reaction, every action. Yeah. And we are so damn busy with stuff. That something someone somehow has created this opposite reaction to oh, here, here's an antidote.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that we've always had busy lives. We've always had distracted minds. I just think that we've reached a kind of a with the advent of social media and you know, AI and online connectivity. I think we've all been engaged in this social experiment to test how far we can push, how much we're able to give. And we're starting to we're starting to reach a bit of a boundary now. And so if anything, I think mindfulness is really helping folks to find that. That equilibrium was almost like, let's take it back a few steps to when we didn't feel so overwhelmed. Yeah.
Well, what are what are some of the myths that you've heard around mindfulness?
What the one of the biggies is that it's about clearing our minds of thoughts. The other thing is, that in order to meditate, you have to think when you google meditation, and you see these, these memes of, you know, beautiful people perched on top of a mountain wearing flowy flowy living clothes and, and that you've got to sit down cross legged and meditate for hours. And the reality of what meditation can be like is doesn't have to be anything like that, you know, a typical meditation for me, I'd be sitting on a normal chair, like a dining chair, it might be even just for five minutes. And I say if someone was to take a picture of me, while I'm doing that, it wouldn't be put on Google. As an image for people to search, it can just been very normal. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I was always put off by the flowery floaty language of, you know, that, that that classic thing that you might identify meditation, some with, and I was always put off by words like, you know, standing in my truth and be hard being a being of light and all of that it just wasn't how I spoke. So I think it can feel just absolutely normal, just like it's you trying something different.
Other is answering that you know about mindfulness. So anything that you wish people knew about mindfulness that you suspect they don't?
Yeah. I, the thing, which I like to I like folks to know about mindfulness is that it's not about necess, necessarily making yourself feel all positive, like all the time. Yeah, of course, we all want to feel positive. But what I truly appreciate about mindfulness, and I think where many people that give it a go have a sense of relief, is that it's not about trying to make yourself feel any particular way. It's about coming to a point of a more easeful relationship with life as it is. So you don't have to change anything about your life in order to start feeling like you have a much better, more useful relationship with it. It's more about how, how much can I be an acceptance of the way things are, and let things go than it is about just trying to, you know, being be in a positive frame of mind. All the time, I think, I think it's really important that we each learn how to be with life, rather than try to kind of force engineer it all the time.
Let's assume someone who's listening goes up. Sounds like a good idea. I'm gonna give that a go. How do they start?
Well, I always say if you, if what you want to do is just give it put your toe in the water and see what it's like. I would suggest either downloading an app, you know, something like headspace. I think the 10% happier app is a great place to start. And just try out a few, you know, five minute meditations. But always say when you're giving it a go, give it a fair crack, you know, because you know what it's like when we approach things, we might have preconceived ideas of what to expect. So approach it with a completely open mind. Anyone that wants to take a, you know, maybe a seven day challenge. I've got a seven day mindfulness course that people can take from from the website. Yeah, great. And I would say just go lightly and give it a go. It's there's so many mindfulness meditations or mindfulness exercises that you can try on on YouTube, on my website, and but with mindfulness, it's one of those things that you really start to feel the benefits when you give it a little bit of time and consistency. You'll probably feel that your life is completely He changed and transformed after a five minute lunchtime meditation for the first time. But if you give it a little bit of consistency over a period of time, then you start to notice, as you're going about your day, ah, I did relate to that challenge a little bit more easily than than I would have done before. So it's not like there's gonna be all these fireworks going off that you notice about how it's changing you, but you do start to notice that it puts you in a much more peaceful relationship with with, you know, all of these stresses and strains of life. So, yeah, I would definitely plug my own. I
just had a thought as you were talking, when I even asked the question, how do you start? And I wrote down in a way that you can continue regularly? Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. It is far better to meditate for five minutes, a day than it is to meditate for one hour, once a week. Yes, yeah, exactly. And even if you can't manage five minutes, start with one minute, you know, you don't even have to sit down, you just have to, you know, stand and just, you know, fill your feet on the floor filled a breath coming in and out. And what typically happens is you set the intention to be mindful for a minute, that minute will go like that. And you think, Oh, I might as well carry on for another minute. And it's the phrase which I use with my clients all the time is short moments many times. Yeah. Which, which tends to be how we benefited benefit from it the most.
Yeah, I agree. Why don't people do it that?
Well, I think, I think a lot of what I notice pay is a lot of people are really interested, and they're really curious about it. And we have this because life is so busy. I think time is the biggest factor. You know, even where am I going to find these five minutes to give it a go, because it's not just the five minutes of practising, it's the five minutes, you've got to make space around that five minutes to give it a go. So I think folks really feel up against it from a time point of view. But I think even more than that, if we were to be honest with ourselves, what stops us doing it is the fear of sitting down and being quiet with our own minds for for just a few minutes at a time. Because we don't know what what is my mind going to throw up. And there's a there's that classic is I can't remember the phrase, or the or the quote completely, but that that idea of put someone in a room by themselves, you know, if you can sit by yourself in a room, you know, with with just your thoughts and be content with that, then that's a great place to be. But I think a lot of us really struggle with that.
Some research about that, that people would rather have, you know, loud rock music played them be with themselves. Yeah,
there was one study, where they put people in a waiting room for I don't know, maybe it was like half an hour. And it was absolutely silent. There was nothing else they didn't have their phones or anything like anything available. But there was a little device in the room where people could give themselves an electric shock. And it was absolutely fascinated is that after a while of just being in that room, people started to start using this device to give themselves these shocks because they would rather have the shock than be left alone with, you know, by themselves with their own thoughts, you know, because they're in control of that stimulation. It's totally incredible. Yeah,
and you can see that happening now today with the, you know, the proliferation of all things social media and phones and you know, the billions of dollars in the huge mines that are set in place things that you know, most normal people like you and I just can't go off because it's designed to trick us and trap us personally. Yeah,
exactly. Yeah. If for no other reason than just to start to retrain your mind how to pay attention. Well. I think that's a that's probably a great reason to get started. Yeah.
Paul has been fascinating. On a personal level tracking talking to you. Perhaps our last couple of questions for me
if there was one message that you wanted, humanity, or country and organisation, family and individual to hear, based on what you've learned and what you're teaching, what would it be?
It might sound a bit fluffy, but I mean it with all sincerity. It would be to focus on being intentionally kind, even when being unkind, feels like it's quite a difficult thing to do. Because I think kindness is what connects us to our common humanity. You know, we're everybody suffers in their own way. And we all suffer, because we are part of, we all have the human condition. So when I'm suffering, I know that it is not unique to me. Everyone on the planet has the capacity to do it in that way. And when we when we recognise that we are all in this together, it doesn't make sense to be anything other than been kind. And when we are kind to each other. I think everyone wins.
I think that's a very poignant and beautiful message to pause on. Paul, for anyone interested? How do we get in touch? If you've got a website? If you've got please, this has been willing to connect with you. How do we do that? Yeah,
probably the best place to get in contact with me is through the website. It's Paul Dalton dot coach, as in the word coach. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So if anyone wants to look me up on LinkedIn, it's Paul Dalton, mindfulness on LinkedIn. And through the website, you'll see that you can join my weekly newsletter, I've got a podcast that goes out quite regularly as well, for anyone interested in this kind of stuff wants to learn it a bit more than then, you know, be glad to have you on
board. Right? Well, you described yourself at the start as an unlikely mindfulness teacher. I think through this conversation, there's at least someone somewhere that is now more likely to try some mindfulness. So on their behalf.
Thank you. Thank you for donations for responding to the questions and just sharing some ancient and modern wisdom about some of the benefits and practices of this thing called mindfulness.
It's been such a pleasure, Pete. Really enjoyed it. Thank you.
You're welcome. Take care.
