Welcome to this week's Freedom Friday's podcast, where I have an interesting guest who trades in confidence, and we've just found out we were actually colleagues in a previous life. And Kim is a leadership development specialist, an international Mum. So Kim Lancer, welcome to the conversation.
Thank you, Pete. I love finding out that we have a crossover connection.
Yeah, yeah, there's probably that was, it was it was Kevin Bacon. You know, Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. It's probably now down to two.
Yeah, definitely.
We're all connected somewhere with someone at some point. Yeah, Kim, thank you. So part of what you've been doing is you've been discovering that even at the highest level, confidence can be a bit of an issue for people. And your idea about igniting confidence and reversing tall poppy syndrome, tell me a little bit about what was the what was the rubicon moment where you went, Oh, my God, confidence is an issue.
It was actually in a leadership program. I remember it really clearly. I read the resumes of these very senior top 10, high potential leaders. And I was really intimidated, because they all had Harvard MBAs and they'd set up businesses on the side whilst being at this amazing fortune 100 company. And I literally was thinking, wow, that's not at the same level I am. So I had to do a bit of prep in my own mind, as in I have a skill, I can help them. And then when I met them, they thought of themselves far lower. All sorts of self doubt and confidence was playing out for them, and that blew my mind, because they were so impressive and at a supreme level,
Interesting. So how did you spot the self doubt? How does it show up in someone like that?
It shows up in coaching. Like nobody discloses it to you straight away, unless you have trust. So that's the unique part of being a coach. You know, now I've seen it 1000s of times, and I feel like it's very special in this role, because people actually drop the polish and the veneer. And when they do that, and they trust you, which of course, takes time, it's a bit like with your friends, they'll actually tell you what's really going on. So yeah, it's a little bit of both. Like the whole group together, everyone looks perfect and polished in the beginning. And then, you know, maybe somebody says something vulnerable, and somebody else reacts to that, and it starts to open up. And then you do one on one, and interestingly, it showed up in different coaching, again, somebody who would run, you know, a region in the US, like, really impressive level, and yet, and I thought what they might be talking about was, you know, how do I have advanced negotiation or strategic thinking. But really what was happening was, how do I talk to this team member, which was about their confidence, or how do I step into conflict? Or it was the same themes. It was, how, how do they believe in themselves before they do this next step? And that's getting in the way.
Which is interesting, because I think you know both you and I talked prior to this, that we both still experience a lack of confidence and self doubt. And my experience of it is anyone who has that feeling or experience or mindset, quite literally thinks it's just them, and yet it's all of us.
Exactly, exactly! That's the thing that gets me all the time. Because, you know, the question that I find that everybody asks at all different age, at some point someone thinks, Why me. Like, why did this happen to me? It's only me that made this mistake, anything so I find that so ridiculous Pete that that even before I knew, actually it's not just me, it's just a theme. I, yeah, I just, I just want it to be normal for everyone, for everyone to actually understand, oh no, everybody would have that. It's like, it's very natural for us to put people on pedestals, isn't it? Yeah, and in fact, I've experienced that myself as a coach like you often have you, of course, you're empowering other people, but you're in this level where. You have all this knowledge, and you do it long enough people expect it. Okay. What have you got that will help me, but letting go of that is the most genuine thing, as in a oh no, of course, I still have self doubt. I teach it and still experience it. I just have figured out some things that help me, and I don't spend as much time when I get back into that spiral really criticising. Which I also think gets in, gets in everyone's way, because the more senior you get, the more lonely you are. At the whole CEO syndrome, the more you would question yourself, the more you're not allowed to question yourself. So I've definitely had that in my role. The more you got to put more polish on all of it is making it harder, actually to perform, but to be happy, right? Just to be happy, it's a lot of effort, yeah, pretending.
Can I note that you have called your business Tall Poppies leadership. My understanding is that 'tall poppies' is kind of more of an Australian thing, I think. For those that aren't Australian are not familiar with the term, what does tall poppies mean? What's the theory behind tall poppy syndrome?
Yeah, it's the theory that you don't want to stand too tall. It's the theory that things should be equal. And so it started from an idea so that I understand, like farmers would have a field of poppies, and they would want them all to be at the same height.
Right, so it's quite literal?
So it's, yeah, it's literal, like everything, okay, we want it to be, you know, even. How that played out, though, into the culture here. And definitely what I grew up with is don't put your head up too high and say how great you are. Don't talk about your achievements like you would know from Australian country culture, humility, humbleness, is incredibly ingrained in how we grow up, and it's valued. Yeah, I find the opposite of that is, well, now you can't celebrate success, or if someone in the media is there, you can't allow them to be happy. You have to pull them down. So this whole pulling down thing is sort of the culture, and there's a little bit of it in New Zealand too, but yeah, mainly here.
And you've lived in two or three continents, right? You know US, Europe, yes, yeah. Now we're going to have to be it's going to have to be general here, because, you know, one size fits one and you know, everyone's different. Let's park that for a second. What have you noticed about people's responses to tall poppy scenarios in Australia, for example, versus the US? What's kind of the advantages and the disadvantages of how culturally we respond.
I mean, there's a beautiful one here, which is people being humble, very you have a say. No, you have a say. Like sharing. It's a share. You know, it's not an extreme capitalist society. I don't find it's let's contribute. You have lots of consensus in the way, you know, business is done in the way, there's a community feel to it. That's a huge positive. Um, on the other side, yeah, you can't be too big for your boots. Yeah, yeah. So, so everyone's kind of excited, but a little bit fearful of saying I went for this until you actually get it, or we don't just get to revel in it and say, I'm proud, because you don't want to be cocky, like there's this whole whatever you do, don't be cocky, because you've got to be Yeah, in the US. I think the plus minus there is, you know, it can be to bravado. I remember very first date, not even my dating experience. I walked into a bar i i had only been in New York a week, a guy came up to me at the bar, um, gave me his business card, slid it across, and said, I have an MBA from Harvard. Call me.
That was his jack up line. That
was his job. And he said, Call me. Let's talk. And I still remember thinking that is so bizarre. Why would you tell me your credential? Because, of course, comparing it to the UK, you cannot do that like it's, you know, you tone down your humor there, which I love, but it's, again, I think they stifle achievements as well. It's not a feel great about what you're doing and sharing. It's like, no, no, no. But anyway, I also remember him saying, you know, call me. And I was thinking, well, you're here now, but you want to just talk now and tell me how great you are, instead of just like, yeah, that did you call So, you don't want either, right? You don't want falseness. Like I'm overly I'm pushing everyone out of the way. It's highly competitive. It's not values oriented. But the other way, I think, is almost like a silent killer here, right, right? I do like there. The one of the first CEOs I saw from coming back five years ago, talked about humbleness and how important that is. And in a way, I understood it. He's saying, you know, it's great to downplay what you've done. But also he was at a level of, you know, he's at the top of one of the Australian companies talking about it so he can afford to be humble. Now, he's made it. And I thought that was kind of dangerous for people listening to it, because I think humbleness is confused. Instead of, why can't we just share a mini win? Why can't we tell our team, I'm going to go for this, and without knowing your winner, why can't you just feel good like that? You know, the other one that's humbleness stops expressing life, I think, in a way, sometimes by accident. Yeah, interesting.
So you obviously immersed yourself in this. What gets in the way? What gets us in the way? What gets in the way of us authentically expressing our wins, authentically expressing what we're going for? Yeah, thoughts on that.
It's fear, isn't it? Like, it's fear, it's embarrassment. So I don't want to tell you I'm going for something, case I don't get it, then I would be embarrassed. I don't want to tell you, because I'm worried about perception, like, you know, to say, Oh, we've just won a client, and I'm so happy, in case you think I'm being cocky, right?
Bad stuff necessarily. It's the kind of the other side of it as well.
Yeah. And what stops you generally is because it's not a norm. So if you're in like, having 11 years in New York, which is an unique and culture in itself. It's different to other cities and other places. You're encouraged, you are encouraged to share your contributions. It's almost like you have to advocate for yourself. This is a system I found working, you know, large organization where you naturally have to advocate, and you will get left behind if you don't do that. So that's how I've been taught, in a way, but it's not what I grew up with now that can lead to overly competitive and not as collaborative, of course, but then you don't have as much fear. It's just the way that you have to do it depends.
Interesting. Kim, I'm going to going to make you know conversational mistake here, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Yeah, four questions in one here. Yeah, given your experience, what differences or similarities Have you found in confidence based on age or tenure or gender, or even sector. Have you noticed any kind of patterns show up?
Yeah, I haven't classified it in those four quadrants, so I might just start with I find that confidence, firstly is one of the most important things to actually unlocking your skills. Nobody talks about it like that. Everyone wants an extra credential. Let me do you know AICD and MBA like I need something else in order to but actually what you need is to think about yourself differently first, so that is relevant to everybody. That's why we don't go for roles or all sorts of things, then male female. So I think the gender difference is that this is there's different external pressures on female leaders that away. So there's already barriers in the world. There's already research, so many different internal barriers. There were different roles that they play. So there's different things affecting creating more self doubt than perhaps males that said, I find in coaching, it takes longer for male leaders to open up, and they don't say it as in, I don't have confidence they presented as in. I'm going into this meeting, and I'm just looking for some ideas on what I might do right, which is, I mean, of course, code for Hey, my mindset is not in the right place. I'm not sure how to own it. I'm worried about the impact of these two leaders, or how the CO head's going to take that message, how the which is valid. But these are concerns about the impact. Whereas a female leader might just again, this is very thematic, so not true for everyone at all. A female leader might just talk about I over criticism, a lot of analysis. Why can't I be better? Yeah, not for everyone, but that might be a theme age I find, I find in talking to maybe sort of 20 year old leaders like younger generation, they. They are. They don't resonate with confidence being a thing for them. Oh, really, not as much
confidence is not the issue. Or confidence is that,
I don't know. Do you remember this, too, Pete, when you were 20 and you knew everything? Did you I
just a while ago? But yeah, maybe, yeah, what did they call it then?
Well, they don't, because I find they're not. It's like not knowing what you don't know. You don't know that. You don't know your level of confidence is
they don't have a name for it?
Yeah, I don't think they. I haven't found that they identify, oh, I have a lot of self doubt, or they talk openly. I wouldn't personally work with that audience as much as a whole, I would have far more data on different age. Obviously, I have my son who's 20. It's very much like you don't know what you don't know, so you're just pushing forward, and it's all great. Yeah,
interesting. So my youngest daughter's 20, yeah, this is a huge generalization, but she talks about her and she does extrapolate as a hard generation, which is not the case, but it's an interesting example. They'll march down the high street for some cause in their 1000s, but pick up the phone to order a takeaway. Yes. What is going on there? Extreme example, yeah, you find there's that polarity in how people express or live with or hide their self doubt or confidence.
Yes, definitely. I think the fear of rejection is heightened for younger generations, and that it's about communication. So putting myself out there dating would be the same, right? You know, like asking somebody and hearing yes or no in front of your face. Of course, social medias influence that, so I don't find the younger generations are willing to fail as much, to go through rejection as much, even though everybody knows that's how you have the greatest learning. And I think the system is set up so you don't have to have as much. You can do it via text. We're talking about a personal sense, right? Whereas, yeah, I mean, nobody likes rejection. I think about having the business I was, I have been rejected 1000s of times in the last five years, more than any other time. And it doesn't it bounces more. So it's a great thing to go through, isn't it? Back to your question about industries. I just think the difference with industry is if the in your industry, where um, conviction is key. So generally, these are professional services I relate to my own experience, investment banking and management consulting, where, if you are the expert, you need to demonstrate confidence and conviction. Conviction confidence is within conviction is how you show it. Yeah, in different industries that don't have that aren't selling, that are providing expertise, they might be helping you can be more vulnerable, and so they might be quicker to actually say, Oh, I'm not sure about this. So healthcare clients versus a investment banking client. Yeah, there could be variation. There
interesting. Thank you. Just picking up on what one thing you said around the professional services, thing that, let's make this a broader conversation. I grew up in a professionally in what was deemed a comms business, predominantly, and what the kind of merging of those two businesses came with was this idea that, in terms of how we communicate, there's things that we know, there's things that we do, and there's how we are being whilst we're doing what we know is confidence something you do, or something you're being,
hmm, it's something that you're being, and it's real if you are actually being it, if it's inside, there are so the most genuine way to be confident is to actually think about your view of yourself and then to show it. But of course, we have, you know, messages in the world about faking it. Yeah, you can show it without truly feeling it. So I have two views about that. I I mean, firstly, can you be confident in everything you do? Like, no, I don't think so. We're not perfect.
We're not experts. If you've got a lot of blind spots, possibly, yeah, because
that would go back to cocky So and, and that, that question comes up, right? Well, I don't want to be too confident. I don't think the risk of I think the risk of overconfidence versus the risk of underconfidence is completely disproportionate. Like, there is far more of a problem in the world of people who are not asking for what they want, not doing what they want, not being confident, that is the greater problem. It's not the cocky people who are, you know, showcasing a bit more like they they're the ones who don't, aren't aware of their blind spots and think everything's perfect. Well, they'll figure that out themselves, or they won't, because they're never doing development like the the greater population are doing the other way. So do you want to just fake it? No, you'd be completely disingenuous. That said, Do you want to go into your boss and say, Oh, I'm a nervous wreck. I'm doubting everything. No, that's when same with when you're presenting in front of a client, like you can demonstrate expertise and conviction, whilst you're still on a journey to believe your confidence as well. And I think that's important, because that's how we ascertain right or wrong in the first seven seconds, that's how we ascertain, do you know your stuff, or don't you?
It's interesting you say that, because if I'm working with a group, and I I'm in this room of confidence. And I asked them about, you know, where'd you get it from? Yeah, most of them would say, at least, what they articulate is that I get it from what I know. And yet, you've put them in a communication context, anyone in a communication context, and ask them if they're confident. And they go, No, despite knowing everything they need to know, yeah. You put them in that context, and suddenly it's reversed, which gives them a bit of a you know, they go trans derivation research. You're going, Oh my God, you've just screwed me up. Peter, well, the point, just the knowing stuff is not enough. No, exactly. You've kind of because what you're telling me is, I'm not confident in that context when she is there. Yes, yeah, the questions I don't know I'm going to get that might trip me up from what I don't know. Yeah,
it's such a great yeah, because you know the feeling that you have in meetings where you know this much, but if you could get asked a question, we have to spontaneously react people like, oh. But I find if you have a sense of self worthiness, if you like yourself, you feel like, I'm pretty good, I know enough, then you can have a meeting where people will throw things at you, and you feel okay, saying, I'll get back to you. That's a good point. All of those things. If you're like, Oh, they've just found a crack like imposter syndrome, which, of course, we all experience, then you get really defensive, and you think, I don't want to be in that situation, because if I'm caught out about not knowing, but I actually feel like, what if you stepped into that situation with Well, of course, there are things I wouldn't know, but I can deal with it. I think that I can deal with it. I'm a yeah, that feeling about yourself, like I'm a good leader. I won't do it perfectly, but it's okay. I'll be able to navigate that feeling stays forever.
And one of the one of the distinctions I've read about is and again, it's a bit hackneyed and it's overused and it's weaponized sometimes, but this distinction between fixed and a growth mindset, yeah, in the context of when we're presented with a situation when the answer inside of us is, I don't know, that, if I don't know is the end, that's an example of fixed whereas if I don't know is the beginning, example of growth. Yeah. Anyone that's kind of ready to hear that? That's a really interesting line for them to traverse. So when you don't know, and that's the end, what do you do? Panic, get defensiveness. Or when you get to, I don't know, when you think that's interesting. Haven't thought about like that before, and you build upon it's actually extending your competence at the edge. And so really interesting moment of truth, when we get to that point when a situation or someone asks us a question, and the answer inside is, sure, I don't know, where do you go next?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, that makes me think of so many things like, what like, personally, once upon a time, getting told in a counseling session, like, do you want to talk about this? And I remember being super honest like that is terrifying to me, like, oh, and even before the counselor said, I was like, damn it, that means I have to talk about it, doesn't it? And, you know, of course, her face lit up. She was like, hell, yeah, you do.
Yeah. Yeah, it's
the juicy stuff, right? And also, I find it really ironic, right? We're all trying to be more confident. Like, but what is confident? It's just a way of thinking, I feel good about myself. You don't grow up in the world feeling good about yourself necessarily. They're like, firstly, your brain's messed up and giving you all these negative, negative messages. Secondly, it depends on, like, there's all this competition, like, when we don't have belonging, like, this whole system that we live in is not, like, feel great about yourself, which I feel is weird and ironic anyway, because it's not how I don't imagine a God creating beautiful creatures and then being like, Oh, let me put all these barriers in the way. Yeah. Like, it's just weird. That's probably why I feel so passionate about, oh, just be aware of the barriers so you can navigate it. But anyway, so there's all these things that could get in your mind. But how do you have more confidence? You have to go through discomfort and practice to get it that's the only way to have more of it. So and everyone, of course, would be terrified about that, like, practice it again and again and again. Do it? Grow, grow, grow until it feels more comfortable. Like, that's a weird system too.
This is a really, this is kind of a throwaway line, but kind of not so Dutch. Courage doesn't work then,
oh, I think it, I think it definitely can do for short term, like whole concept of, can I like, if I can change my state, I can come in into this session and pep talk myself so I look and feel better and I do? I wear things that do? I put on socks, I look at sides, I do all sorts of things to get me into that mode. Will that change the way I feel about myself, long, long term, not as much as if I actually think about, you know, my strengths, how I show up in the world, like if I'm also kinder to myself at base level, if I already think which is going to happen? Pete, after this podcast, I'm going to think about 12 things I could have said better now, because I've learnt about this so much, I already know that Kevin, my little inner voice, is going to try and mess with me. So I you know, obviously I'm like Kevin, I'm not going to pay any attention to you. That's the only difference. And what if everybody did that? Because I definitely used to go into meetings totally focusing on what I didn't do, which, by itself, pulls down your confidence. Yeah, just like you wouldn't ask for what you want. We aren't taught that. I don't think, and I find these fundamental things like, What if everybody, to your point, didn't say, it's just me? Everyone went, Oh, it's everybody. You're just fake. You're just hiding it, you're hiding it, you're hiding it. And you and I are lucky. We actually hear behind the scenes, and we know no this is true. Everybody at all level is experiencing self doubt. People have just learned to navigate it better through practice. Yeah,
I think so, which I'm going to come to in a second, and I'm going to ask you about Kevin. I think that's probably a strategy that not many people ever know about or deploy, which help the dialog with this inner thing that's going on. But yeah, double barrel question. First question, you've been immersed in this. You do it yourself. You're teaching others what's the source of most self doubt?
Oh, a negative experience you've had in your life. I'm going to give you an example that has had emotion around it. Okay, so for example? Well, I can tell you, mine probably the biggest thing. Would like challenge, whatever that I had as being told that I was about to be promoted, like 99% sure it was a year long process. There are all these sponsors, and then getting told I didn't get promoted, which was quite a surprise in that context, but getting told why? So this is the emotion. So the way the it was messaged at the time was that I was overly passionate, overly passionate. Okay, I'm sure you can see that from my in it, right? And my energy, which was a little way of saying too pushy with internal stakeholders, which would have been true, by the way, that would have been a blind spot for me. I was very passionate about leadership development. So if someone was like, we're going to put it online, I'd be like, No, it needs to be in person. Like, imagine doing that when you're like, down here and everybody else is way more senior than you and anyway, but for a while, so that feeling of, oh, my passion is a negative thing. Don't be too out there. Don't be too opinionated. Yeah, when people have that messages like that, their self doubt. Out reminds them of it so and meaning, if you got told that you were aggressive when you were 20, and you're a leader who's 40 now, and you've just been promoted, their self doubt will come from that message. And I'll like, I don't want to be too aggressive, and so they will spiral into questioning themselves far more, even though they're not even close to being aggressive anymore. Yeah, presenting, if you got told or you have an emotional experience around presenting where there's lots of self doubt, it could have happened 1020, years ago, and people's doubt will go to that so it's based on other people's feedback that has an emotion tied to it.
Yeah, yeah, interesting. And is, is self doubt, predominantly our internal dialog, remembering something from the past,
not I think it's accelerated by that, um, obviously external factors. So the other category would be family. It's the messages that you repeatedly hear. Because family is, of course, our first introduction into a system in the world. So messages you get told there, if they have an, you know, negative imprint, they tend to stick. If the messages you get told by key people, like, you know, don't talk too much like Uh oh, then we just hold on to it. So the internal dialog is influenced by external influences, and it accelerates it.
The example I use when people ask about that, for me is it's an initial story my so I've got three kids older now, but when my eldest was, I think three, second was being bottle fed. My wife was downstairs feeding my son with the bottle. My eldest came downstairs and said, where's mine? Or she might have even said that. And my wife simply pointed, or just gestured to the fridge and said, yours is in the fridge. From that moment on, my daughter has never had milk, yeah. So the meaning that she made, the narrative that she taught the con, you know, all of that. It's a simple example, but it's interesting, easy and almost accidental, we can pick these things up
exactly. So it's, it's accelerated, isn't it by external forces, like, so we might have a tiny bit in us. I also think there's weird expectations, like, so I you're not confident about everything. You're not supposed to be perfect. Like, there's these weird messages, I'm not I'm built to compare myself all the time, but I have to do a bit of work. I'm built to self doubt all the time, but I have to do a bit of work. Imagine if we could just tell our kids when they're young, hey, this is these. Are all the things that are there. We don't get taught these things at school either. And then you got a little bit of a list of so therefore, every time you go to a meeting, you'll have crazy doubt. Anytime you meet with somebody important, Oh, watch it. Then anytime there's an emotional message, in fact, from mom, she's probably going to mess you up. Like, and we just told them, navigate, navigate, navigate, tool to actually my wish for the world. Like, I came back to Australia and thought, why am I talking about this with women leaders? Just one particular category. I want to go back to my school and tell 13 year old girls just as relevant for boys. Here are all the tools. I think we wouldn't have the same later on, and it would be more comfortable for everyone to admit it. Hence the dialog around it all. It's not perfect,
and I noticed that one of your tools is that you've named your inner dialog, Kevin, yes, if it's if it's shareable, tell me why, and tell me what the tool is. Why would we name our internal dialog and name and why Kevin and
Kevin? Kevin came to me from a client years ago. He I remember he was talking about this guy who sounded really evil. He said was Gavin and um, and irrational, like the things that were happening. I'm like, that's, that's totally not fair. That's not valid. And I thought that was a perfect reminder for me to be like, right, in a voice which is five to one negative, you know, ratio skewed how irrational that our operating our brain is set up to doubt to such an extent, just like you have the performance review and you get five good things, one bad, and we all focus on the bad, like, what sort of system is that? So that's how I thought about this crazy guy, Kevin and and it really works, because it's normalized. So there's a few things going into any meeting. I know, you know, I'm a high achiever. I want, once upon a time, one of the things to be perfect. I'm like, just not realistic. So I tell myself not to spend as much time thinking about what I could have said and find. More time on. I did well so that that happens before big pictures. You know, I put tons of pressure on myself for clients, to be in front of clients. I imagine it a certain way, so I have to talk to myself before it happens one then afterwards, I'm far more intentional about what I say. So what would come out of my mouth first? Would be like, I didn't say, I wish I had. And now I just pause and I make sure that I say what I did well, first, that's that's happens with practice now, especially with my husband, you know, with the people that you're really casual with, and then finally, with Kevin, I just have a laugh about it all. Like, how easy if you said anything to me right now, Pete, about my dress, what I said, How I spoke too long. I just think it's ridiculous that you could spark and ignite Kevin and I could go on a rant of self doubt just because you said it. Yeah. So that's how I think about it. Like, why would I give you all that control? Also not for me to spend too much time in it. Like, no, Kevin, irrational, a little bit, but it's not going to help me perform. And I really want to grow and perform, so I'm like, You're not serving, not serving, not serving, not a part of my plan, even though you're there all the time. So yeah, little a little light, and then No, a little light, no,
cool. So does Kevin have a an optimistic twin? The reason I'm asking is Yeah, because I've named my internal dialog Benny. Betty. Oh, wow. Benny, as in, literally, Benny Hill. Oh, of course, that's
the only Benny I know, right? So
the Benny Hill show was a UK comedy, yeah, totally inappropriate now, but the Benny Hill music is this ridiculous, comical. Name is Kevin, but I'm wondering whether Benny and or Kevin starts talking about ourselves need, like an optimistic twin, as in, what's the upside? Who kicks in the Who's, who's the person in your head goes, What did I do? Well, first, then we can let Kevin speak. Yeah.
Well, yeah, I definitely do paid. I live in that. So I'm incredibly optimistic. I like dream things I met. I believe deeply in manifesting like this. This is what I want in life, and I can absolutely have it. So to the point that if I picture things with my husband, I'm like, Oh, I wonder if we could. He's actually said to me, and I've said to him, how come you're not stepping into this conversation, he's like, because if I do, I know it'll happen, you know, like, as a so I'm in that, like, I'm in that space on purpose. I really take care of my thoughts, as in, this is what I want. I'm going to put, I don't know, protection on some of my thoughts, I'm going to monitor when I go into a bit of a spiral. But I believe I can have it. I believe we can all have it, if we would focus more positively on what we want, not the gap of what we don't have. And I noticed that for me all the time, the minute I step into, uh oh, there's a bit of lack here. Is the minute I start feeling worse. Is the minute that Kevin comes in and I'm like, That's not myself. I'm supposed to enjoy life and be happy. I think that for everybody, I think we just get caught in comparing ourselves or all these other things. We don't know how normal it is to have down. So we don't know how to figure out to this what I want, like you can have it,
um, one of the statements I make to people, and I make it because I think I know what I'm talking about, and I've done some, if not all of it, but I'm sure nod and go. I have no idea what you mean, Pete, is I tell them about the leaders that I've met, the people that I've met that are most comfortable in their imperfect skin, right? And to get there, they have to do the work. They have to do the work on themselves. And everyone knows goes, yep, yep. I know. I know. Mention that to you. What would you say the what is on ourselves that helps reduce self doubt and ignite confidence?
It's really foundational things. The work is truly writing down strengths we call the I call them superpowers, like you have to have a little personal party, like you have to actually write down things that you know, you kind of know someone told you along the way, and you think they're silly and fluffy. They're not to write down like, these are my superpowers? You need to ask your friends, what are your superpowers? You need to get data on how do I show up for you? And write it down. Don't just hear it and dismiss it. That's. What your brain will do. Yeah. And also amazing to go back on three best decisions I made in my life. Okay? Best decisions hands down. You were not influenced making them. You made them yourself. That tells you, right there, it's your inner voice. It's me. I got this. Okay, I got this. Oh, three achievements, like, on your resume, you know, three things that you've achieved, and then three things you're really proud of, yeah, like, look at what I've actually done. So with that, you immediately feel better about yourself, so that you actually have, you know, like you're armed with something when Kevin's like, Oh, you didn't say the right thing. Oh, well, you know, I'm imperfect, and look at the things I am doing. Well, yeah, I think, I think imperfection is fascinating, because the world is telling us, yeah, I achievers keep going and going and going. So that's something that I think a lot about how I want to keep growing, and could always do things better. But sometimes enough is enough, and that's okay. I think that is really important. Like, I did the best with what I have today, and that's enough. Like, that's a lifelong journey. Yeah,
right, that we learn on a daily basis.
Yeah, yeah. Um, even, I don't know if people do this, but I regularly write down, especially because, you know, again, because I'm in a world of, like, as much as we impact and feel amazing about what I do, I also go and talk to clients a lot and get knocked back a lot, like that's that's just natural. If you're in a business, you're always out there, you're always in front of people. So you it doesn't work for everyone, does it? But you feel good enough, like I'm serving you, but not everyone. So in that space, I feel like it's important to also constantly feel good, like we're moving forward. It's progress. It's not just the outcome. So I write down every month things that we did, and I talked to my coach, I've got a mentor. I make sure, instead of talking about a goal for the future, I just stop and go. Here's everything that happened this month. And every time I do, I feel better. And a lot of those times I'm thinking, Oh, but I lost a deal, or we could have done this, or data. You know, I have high pressure on which I think a lot of people do. It's about the time, like I want to achieve this by this time, but if I wasn't as hard on myself about the time, I would just think about, oh, it's just about progress. So I'm not going to get it by that time, but I am growing myself. I'm becoming a better person. I'm learning and I will get there. That's the positivity too.
And even if you don't who you become on the way is the more important thing anyway, yeah,
which is the other thing that's the unexpected? Yeah, we didn't win awards recently, Pete and I was devastated. I literally cried, you know, we were up for the Telstra Awards, up. I told the world I was so happy. We got through to stage three, like 1000s of applicants were down to a handful, but I feel far more able to go, ah, that's interesting. I thought it was going to be that path, like I really did. I believed it was going to be that path. Turns out it's not how interesting. It'll be another path. I don't suppress it. Though I did have emotion. I was truly disappointed
in that too, right? There's benefit in having a safe fish space to get it out. Yeah,
yeah. I think that's really important. I think sometimes not having that means you don't honor it in the same way,
yeah, and you support and you avoid it, and you bury it and it sometimes, usually, my experience is it shows up somewhere,
of course, yeah. And also, I think if you're really goal orientated, so not everybody you know, has this burning purpose. I get that, you know, I happen to be a little like, beard like that. Or not everybody's like, it must keep moving forward. Like, okay, I got that. But if you, if you do have that pressure, then it's almost like you constantly are putting higher and higher expectations on yourself, which will make it harder. But really, actually, it's about control. I used to be far more this is the path, because I set the goal and that's the path, and now I find way more comfort in like, Oh, I just know the why. I don't know the how. And like, not that path. I wonder, what other path? What other path? And, of course, the other path shows up, like it always shows up, but it took me a while to get there with that one.
Yeah, there's a, I don't know if you've seen it, Kim, there's a lovely image. I think it's Tim. Urban who put it out there. It's basically two pictures sitting alongside each other. The first picture is you at the left hand side and all of the different paths you could have taken, yeah, which you've only taken one. Yeah, middle of the picture, and it's the same picture, but all the paths are open, yeah? It's a lovely visual of, yeah, but it should be in that path. Well, it wasn't. It happened to be there, but guess what? You ended up here? Yeah, same option opens up every single day, etc. So a lovely visual of, ah, okay, I get it, yeah,
because we, we do as humans, like beat ourselves up a lot, don't we think that's if you thought about the level of, how much do you allow yourself to be happy versus frustrated? Yeah, I think it's a bit weird that we're built to be a bit victimy, or we're built to be a bit like, oh, what's happening to me? And you kind of have to get, you have to work on getting to this state of happiness.
Look, and this is a personal comment. I don't know how true this is, because maybe it's an old, grumpy guy. I mean, wash things that the internet has done for us, yeah, is the ultimate comparison of everything. Yeah? So you know, perhaps when I was growing up, I literally compare myself to the other kids on the street? Yeah, I agree. Settled. I was gonna like that. There was a now, the benchmark for success is like, catas, you know, stratospheric. And here's me not comparing myself to who who are below or under, more to who's above and better. Yeah, totally, exactly. And I can get that in a millisecond. Yeah,
I completely agree. We are naturally looking out outside and making meaning from that. I think some of our work is actually not to compare period, actually during covid. When I coach people during covid and they worked from home, there was a remark difference in their confidence. Yeah, interesting. They were not on trading floors. They weren't in open plan. So there were all these themes of, like, wow, I'm not aware of how this person is performing. I'm just aware of mine. Always I think about that as cars, you know, like, you're driving on the freeway and you see the different car, and there's some car passes you. I'm like, don't look at the other car. Just focus on your driving. That takes effort.
It does. It does in itself. It does Kim in your experience, what do most people misunderstand about confidence?
That is this fluffy thing that you're born with, it, that some that everybody has it. It just just all myths, like no you are set up to doubt yourself. You won't be confident about everything. You have to go through discomfort, and it takes practice.
I'm really conscious of time. Kim, so maybe one last question, and we'll ask how people can get in touch. I'm a young mum coming back to work, a middle aged man or woman made redundant in my mid 50s, a I don't want to say the word victim, but I've sourced some, you know, bullying at work, and I'm going into a new job, and I come to you as a coach, and I say, Kim, look, I know, right, I can explain, but I've lost my confidence. I had it. I've now lost it. You've got five minutes to help me, which I know is completely, completely unrealistic. What would you say? What kind of tips, tools? What direction would you point me in to kind of go? Okay, right. Here's how we regain your confidence. Yeah.
Well, you know, in true coaching form, I would be asking all these questions to that person, versus the opposite, which is, me going to be telling you strategies, but I would definitely say how valid that is. Like, this is real. People have real knocks. I can think about real knocks. So validating that, as in, allowing them to express it. Like, what was that really like? What's the impact of that. What are your real feelings like? I would want them to talk about I feel rejected, or I feel like I've let my family down. I'm not whatever it was. So talk genuinely about the real impact of that, because most people are kind of covering up. Because when they tell a friend or someone else, they're like, Oh, I'm going back to work, but it'll all be fine. I lost my job, you know, I'm sure there's something out there. Yeah, they are not being true, so I would want them just to be true. Okay, then I would think about dissecting the different parts of confidence. So you lost your job, that's about. Well, firstly, what were the factors involved? So get diagnostic. Is it an external factor? Is it a you factor? Same with going back to work, like, Oh, you've been out for two years. So people have a myth about that all the time. I help leaders that what exactly has happened to your skill set in the two years? Like externally so you haven't followed the news. But what do you think has happened versus so we diagnose the landscape. That's how I think about that. What's true, what's in your head? And then confidence is not in every facet. Just like I don't feel great about myself as a mum every day, and then I have a day that I don't feel good as a business owner, and then a wife. And so this is not in totality. This is in this particular piece. So they'd have to rebuild how they thought about themselves, which part that would be, the third part, so you don't feel good because you have a sense that your skills are not as applicable anymore. Well, that's not true. And then what skills do you have? And it would go back to who they are, which is about how you could providing a visual of what it could be that they do, yeah, okay, yeah, based on that knowledge of yourself, which is, here's your superpowers, here's what the value that I bring, here's how I feel about myself. The external factors in all three of those situations have just made me think differently, but I actually haven't changed. So let's get back to you, and that takes time. So I would honor the time that different people.
That was very comprehensive and maybe a final, final, cheeky question for you, what builds? What top three things build and dilute your confidence? Oh,
for me, I get such a high after a client's like, boom, you know when you have those coaching sessions and I'm like, I'm so good, because they just got really honest and realized a blind spot. I'm like, I run off thinking I'm the best person in the world. That's one. My confidence, my confidence when I hug my daughter, um, she's two and a half, Avianna, and I can tell she's really comforted. I can tell something about my very being impacts her whole state. And I'm like, wow, that makes me feel really great about myself, and I'm having that experience much later in life, because I didn't have children early. That's what I get to do as a person. Um,
negative, any, anything that dilutes it,
yeah. And then I didn't even get my third one. I was like, oh, probably, um, dilutes it, yeah, definitely. Every time a client says no, you know, like pitching, of course, I have a moment I kind of come back a bit quicker to was there a total match there? You know that those sorts of things. But for the moment, you can't help but feel rejection, like ah, and then I'm like, no, no. Wasn't meant to be. What else starlet said? That's probably a parenting thing again, when I sat at my 15 year old, yeah. And then I'm like, oh, you know better than that. You're an emotionally intelligent coach, damn it, you know Chris. And then I'm like, it's not perfect every day. It's not perfect every day.
Thank you. That's, that's, that's some great insight there. Kim, um, how do people get in a hold of you? What's the website? How do people get in touch if they want to have a further conversations with you?
Yeah, I always love connecting with people. So you can get in touch with us on our website, www.tallpoppies.us, because we've got a US and a Australian presence. We're on Instagram as well. I'm on LinkedIn, The Tall Poppies Community, or just Kim Lancer. Join us because we we share all sorts of thought leadership on this. We share all these snippets and quotes to help everyone get more confident in general. So always love to hear from people and help them.
Thank you. It's been a wide ranging but singular conversation about confidence and self doubt. Kim, I'm really grateful for your insights, your willingness to share, and I'm sure those that are listening will get some real benefit. So thank you for sharing.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
