Welcome to this week's edition of The Freedom Friday's podcast, where I have a new guest, somebody I haven't really met before, and really chatted to yet, we have Tash.
Hi Tash.
Hello, hello. Thanks for having me, even though we have not spoken much yet.
Now you're calling in from New Zealand, right?
Yes. Bay of Plenty, New Zealand one of the best regions here, I would say.
Yeah. If any of you haven't been to New Zealand, or haven't been to the Bay of Plenty, prepared to be stunned that you might want to live there for the rest of your life, is my experience.
Yes.
So thanks for coming on, Tash. I believe in doing a little bit of research that you have a little bit of a voice online and reputation for having some spicy opinions about leadership, life, corporate world, etc, etc. If you're okay, maybe that's how we'll start. What's, what's a kind of, medium spiced opinion you have about leadership?
Oh, medium spiced. Oh gosh, sorry, me, I was thinking of like the other one.
Or is the other one, is it mild, or is it...?
I guess it's a bit spicy, yeah. I mean, maybe, maybe people would consider this medium, but I would say like, leadership isn't hard, you know, and I talk about this quite often, where a lot of people talk about leadership being really hard. You know, it's this hard thing that we need to navigate. It's this hard thing that I need to figure out and learn and all these things. And I kind of strip it back, and I have this just blunt way of saying, it's actually not that hard if we listen more than we talk. Leadership can actually be really fundamentally simple. And I'm not going to say easy, but it can be simpler, where, if we listened more, instead of assuming, instead of having the ego in the way, instead of trying to control, to direct, to know it all, we would actually have such simpler experiences as we navigate through work, through life, through our interactions and relationships with people. And I think that that fundamentally comes down to listening more like, are we listening enough to what people are saying, to what they're experiencing, to what they're feeling, and then deciding how we respond and move with that and, you know, and I teach leadership, I coach on leadership, you know, and I teach all of the skills, but fundamentally, every single skill that I teach comes back to, how much are you listening before you use or apply that skill? And often that's not happening enough, which adds all of the complications around it that makes it really hard, makes it really challenging, because, and when I talk about leaders, I'm not talking about only people in positions of management. You know, in an organisation, we're all leaders, in some way. We all have the ability to influence the people around us, and that's how I see leaders, right? They have the ability to influence. They have that power to influence. And are we listening enough to the people around us to then decide how we show up in that relationship and that dynamic, how we, you know, help them, how we support them, how we grow them. And, yeah, that's just, it's one of the things that I come back to again and again. And when I work with people, they tell me all of these assumptions and these, you know, predictions and guesses and estimations that causes all of these stories and worries and anxiety. And it's like, Have you asked the question? Have you listened to the answer to then decide what to do next? And often, that's the piece that isn't happening enough.
Okay, there's many ways we can take this, but let me start by going, so are you saying then that is Leadership isn't hard? Is that just the shock headline, because the double click is, we need to listen more.
Yes.
Because I reckon there's plenty real experienced leaders out there that would go Tash, it's hard.
It's complex.
It's hard, right? Like parenting is hard.
Oh, yeah, I'm a parent. I feel that.
Right? So don't tell parents that parenting isn't hard. But, and I'm wondering if, and that's okay, because we, you know, in in a world of noise, sometimes we need to make this headline. That's not always true, but it's true enough for people to go, hang on a minute. So I get that. Because you could probably argue if it is about listening, which I believe it is, in part, that's on the people side, and maybe there's a more, a broader definition of leadership, because does listening really help us sell more. make more profit, develop more product? Yada yada yada.
Doesn't it, though? Because if we're not listening to our customers, if we're not listening to the market, if we're not listening to the feedback that we get from our products, are we going to sell as much?
Look, there's no doubt. What I'm saying, though, is hence, this is, you know, leadership isn't hard. I would reckon, if you're listening to your customers, if you accept a principle that one size fits one, each customer has a unique perspective on the world. Each person has a unique perspective on the one that's hard. So that that's kind of what I'm you know is that is that is that just kind of entry point into we just need to listen more.
Well, listening is how we identify each of those people, right? And we understand what is going on for them. Now, when I say it's not hard, it can still be complicated, but often the complication and the complexity we put on top of it is because we're not listening enough, right? So if we even think about our customers or our stakeholders or our investors, or, you know, our people. Yes, we're we've got lots of different voices, which can make it more complicated, right? So which one do we wait more? But ultimately, if we're not listening enough, we don't know which one to wait the most, or which one you know has the most struggle right now. So it is, I'm definitely not saying it's not complicated, but it's made harder because we're not listening enough, right? We're making a lot of assumptions. We're making a lot of you know, and obviously we need to predict, and we need to forecast, and we do need to estimate to some extent, but if we're asking better questions and genuinely listening to those answers, we can make things so much simpler, you know. And one of the definitions I came across around listening and truly listening, from Oscar tremboli, is having the willingness to have your mind changed, you know, when we're truly listening to someone, to people, to a group, and we're willing to have our mind changed. We're actually absorbing what they have to say. We're taking it in and going, okay. Is that, you know, where does that fit with my belief? Where does that fit with my opinion? You know, where do I need to potentially shift what I think or what I do or how I do something, in order to best respond, in order to best solve this particular challenge, but often, what's happening, and what I've seen through my experience, is we're listening, but we're not willing to change our mind. We're not willing to change what we think based on what we are hearing, which then, again, adds that layer of complication, because it's like, yeah, I'm listening, or I'm hearing, but I'm not actually willing to take it on board, which then adds that complication. And again, it's not that everything has to be taken on board, but are we genuinely listening enough so that we can potentially change what we're doing to create better outcomes, more success, better results, whatever it might be.
Um, when you've asked that question of people, are you willing to have your mind changed? What have they said?
A mixture. So I'm
surprised if someone's even denied they're not. Yeah, I've definitely had was, if you ask most people, are you willing to have your mind changed, most people would go, Yeah, of course,
yeah. And I think that's the that's the, I know that's what you want me to say, Yeah, answer. But in one on one coaching in particular, I can usually get to a place where it's like, Well, are you actually willing to change your mind on that? No, because I think that this is right. Okay, I'm not saying that you're not right, but is there a willingness to think about it differently based on where someone else is right? And I've definitely had people say I'm not, and I and I, I will put my hand up and say, sometimes I'm not willing to have my mind changed, because we do get really rooted right in what we think. And I mean, we're not going to go into the whole thing of politics, but politics. This is probably one of the ways, right, you know, but that is one of the arenas where it's like, yeah, we see that really blatantly, of I don't want to have my mind changed, or I'm not willing to have my mind changed, because what I believe is what I believe. But that seeps into how we show up in other areas as well,
and the counter that being willing to or being seen to change my mind is weak.
So if I change my mind, I'm weak. Is that what? I
think it's as much about that possible or apparent correlation than necessarily I'm not willing to change my mind. It's that
fear, right? What's someone going to think about me if I change my mind? Right? And this comes to identity, right? And this is a thing I talk about a lot in leadership, as well as if I change my mind, what does that mean about who I am now, you know, and this isn't just about, like the mundane decisions, but these can be some of our more deep, rooted, you know, beliefs. It's if I changed my mind on this, something that I've been telling or talking about, this is what I believe. This is my values. But if I now change my mind, yeah, what will people think about me? Does that fundamentally change who I am? That fear of no longer belonging, right? And that's the the human psyche coming in of if, if this potentially changes how I'm perceived, I may not no longer belong here, which is a huge risk.
Definitely not what struck me in even just the question, are you willing to change your mind? I reckon most people would see that as binary, as in yes or no, good or bad. And so I wonder if many people, in having that question asked, of them would think of it as, of course, I'm willing to have my mind expanded, which is a kind of different frame on are you willing to have your mind changed? Because I think many people see change as binary, as in more of a change than what I thought was wrong. Now, thinking this is right, which for many people, given our history and biology as well, I'm not going to do that, certainly not in front of you, certainly not in front of you, who you report to me, and I'm responsible for your REM and responsible for yada yada, and off you go.
Yeah, and framing, framing means a lot, right? Like, and I think maybe the power of the word willing, you know, it's not, are you going to, it's like, are you going to change your mind? I think that comes to the yes or no. I think the willingness, if we actually pay attention to that word, is, am I just willing to doesn't mean I have to. It doesn't mean that I'm going to. But am I at a point where I'm willing to listen for the potentiality of it to change? And we can play with both of those right? Like even, am I willing for my mind to be expanded, you know? And there's so much nuance to this, right? And I think this is a mindset skill that we need to develop as people, as Can I play in the nuance? Can I play in the gray of I don't know, like, I don't really know. I don't know what I think about that. I don't know what I believe about that. Do I have enough information to potentially change my mind? Do I have enough information to consider that? And yeah, like we do come back to binary, because it's that fear versus safety, and it's, you know, yes, no black, white, but developing that skill set of can I not know and be willing to play there, and that can be uncomfortable. That's
a that's a very different perspective and question for people, I think we'd say, Yeah, of course, I am, but we know they're not very good at that. A connection I've made TASH is, I think it was a video clip that I've seen online recently which kind of resonates and makes sense. From Chris Voss. I don't know if you've heard of Chris Voss.
I think his name sounds familiar. Yeah. He
wrote the book. Never split the difference, which is a thoroughly, thoroughly recommend, one of the best books I've read on negotiation. Um, he's the guy that literally negotiated hostages lives, right? So not, you know, incredible. And he shared this interesting take on influence and impact. And rather than when you call someone up ask, is this a good time to talk? Answer Yes, he's suggesting, is this a bad time to talk the answer being no, that no, getting a no was more conducive to influence than getting a yes, which is like, Whoa, really, that's kind of counter intuitive, so I'm taking that as I wonder if instead of, or in addition to, are you willing to change your mind, we could ask a question that gets a no response, like, do. You always have a fixed view on things,
no
that. If psychology of that, then maybe there's another way in and you then, you know, you and I or others are armed with a couple of options. So I haven't dug into the psychology of it, but I just kind of it. It provoked me in thinking, Yeah, I would always ask, is this a good time to talk? I would never ask, is this a bad time to talk, seeking a no. And so I'm wondering here, you know, are you willing to change your mind? Well, obviously yes, whereas the counter question might and will seek a no. I wonder if that causes any difference in planting seeds around listening more?
Yeah, that's interesting. And I, I mean, kind of my part of my brain goes, would that actually create more defensiveness, structuring the question that way, like, do you always have a fixed mind, like a fixed view, or a fixed mindset on this? Because, with some of the people in my circles, would be like, No, I don't,
right. And I think that's yeah, right. So they're defending the position that you want them to take. As in, of course, I'm open to it. Yeah, it's interesting, but it's probably easier to take an open Well, of course, I'm willing. I want to be seen as a competent person. I want to be seen as a nice person. I'm being polite, of course, I'm willing to change my mind, but almost defending the fact that you don't have a fixed view. Again. So I haven't dug into the psychology, but I just thought was a really interesting, again, spicy headline to get us to look into maybe there's another way, and not an or, but maybe there's an end to that. Yeah,
I love the end. I don't. I try really hard not to say, but something, something, but it's like this, this, this end, because there is always multiple ways, right? And it is, I think it comes back to the intention, right? Like, what am I wanting to invoke in this conversation, and then using my question or my language to open that, open that door? Because, again, like, what my intention is may not be the way that it's received, right? So I might be wanting to go kind of slither in this way, and I'm like, No, and so yeah, I really like that, just playing with openness versus closeness and how you can use that to to open up lack of a better word, but like to open up the conversation interesting, yeah.
And maybe it appeals more to my bias, where my bias around questioning is often to provoke, I want them to kind of be shaken a little bit by the question. No one's asked me that before, in order to open the mind up to possibility rather than probability, and sometimes my bias would be sometimes that needs a bit of provocation.
Yeah, absolutely. And that's often what happens in coaching, right? People come to you to work on something, and you're asking those uncomfortable questions that the people in their life, their friends, their family, aren't asking because they're too close to it. And I, yeah, I get that all the time of like, oh, never actually been asked that question before. I'm like, Great, let's go there. Let's play. Let's see what happens.
So if that's a, if that's a spicy, a medium spice, what's the, what's the kind of three chili spice? Opinion you have about leadership? Oh, I
Gosh, it's my three spice. Is this the spiciest?
Yeah, is there a spicy? Do you have a spiciest? I mean, obviously you don't have to reveal that. No, no, no. If this was a private conversation, then you may, but knowing that it's been recorded,
yeah? Like, I think one of the the other is it a spicy opinion.
We're still, like, I mean, I don't, I don't know if it is a spicy opinion, but I think I'm still getting very annoyed at the people who get put into leadership positions, positions that have a lot of sway and a lot of influence, that I don't want to say the wrong people, just The not best fit people you know are finding their ways. Yeah? Like, okay, if we're going to be real spicy about it, yeah. Like, the wrong people are, you know, getting getting put into those positions because of tenure technical experience. You know, who knows? Knows? You know? And and it's having a huge detrimental impact on the people that need to work with them, because they're not equipped with the emotional intelligence, the self awareness, the social awareness, the compassion, the the the willingness, I guess, to be in the gray, to not know, to be uncomfortable, to do the hard things, which is necessary in leadership. So I don't know if that's my three chili spice, but yeah, I think still, too many wrong people are getting put into positions that have this level of power,
it would certainly in the what I do. I'm guessing it's the same with you. The Peter Principle is alive and well. And for those that are listening that don't know what the Peter Principle is, it's this idea that most people, or some people, are promoted to one level above their competence. So I'm really good at this level, and I'm Oh, I'm seen as better. So I get to this level, and that's just one level too much, but I'm never going to do that. And so what you're talking about, I think, is when we get to that level of one level of or sometimes more of our competence, we don't have the social awareness, self awareness, compassion, listening, willingness to reach what's required at that level.
Yeah, it's that we're, we're relying on the technical right? We're relying on the the Yeah, like, that technical capability versus the, it's the like, what would be the other term, like, social capability. No, like, I don't know if that would be the term. Kind of just sounds like, I'm making it up right now, but yeah, that because there's, like, the the other side of that argument is there does need to be a level of right confidence, because as we're moving up, as we're moving up. If we're going to talk about ladders and hierarchy, if we're as we're moving out there, there needs to be a level of competence. However, when we're getting into positions of leadership, when we're playing that influencing game, really, it's no longer about technical competences. How do I leverage the other human skills, like, how do I leverage the whole human to get what we need? How do I leverage the whole human to drive the results, to create the success to, you know, achieve the KPIs and objectives and whatever, versus, how do I just tap into them? Technically? Because when people look at leaders, it's like, I don't need you to tap into me technically. I need you to look after me as a person, like I need you to support me who I am as a person so that I can leverage my technical skills to be able to do what I need to do. And I think that's the that's often the part that's missing when people are moved up one because they don't actually have a drive to be great people, leaders, you know, or to be leaders. It's just there's nowhere else to go, so they just need to go here. And then the impact that that has,
can you grow that
Absolutely, and that's the willingness,
let's see. Let's see at one level, at the kind of ego level, or the surface level, I'm willing to grow as a people leader, you know, but I'd love to get into this. We know it's partly about identity. How do you how do you support someone that wants and is willing to do that, and what's the work I have to do on my side to make that mindset shift? Mm,
well, the kind of the identity piece that I work through, there's like four aspects of of that work, which is, it's it's the self awareness. It's the knowing of the self first, before we step into, into that external, into that team dynamic. But one is like knowing what you value. So often leaders are stepping into those positions, they don't actually know what they value and what's really important to them and the what they want to reflect through the way that they lead to the way that they show up. So really understanding that piece. The second piece is their strength. So what are you really good at? What are you really strong at? Um, because I genuinely believe we shouldn't be spending a lot of time on our weaknesses. We should be spending the majority of our time and our strengths and leveraging other people to close our gaps, where our weaknesses are. And then, you know, so really knowing that, so knowing where our zone of genius is. The third thing is our perspectives, like, how do we think be getting really honest with how do i ideate, how do I think? What are the what are the opinions that I hold, what are the perspectives that I have? How do I, you know? How do I interact with other perspectives? So, really understanding how it is that we think, understanding our mindset. It. And then the fourth thing is the impact. So what impact Am I really wanting to have as a leader? And this is the part that the best leaders I know are really clear on that impact. They know how they want to serve other people, they know what kind of influence they want to have, they know what kind of environment they want to create, and they connect to that, and then all four of those aspects come together into what I create as the identity statement, which is, Who am I choosing to be as a leader. So how do I connect to my values? How do I utilize my strengths? How do I leverage my perspectives? And then how do I use that to create my impact? And then through that, they then create that road map of how they're going to show up as a leader. And that, through that work, it highlights, where are the fixed thinking? Where's the fixed thinking? Where are the blocks? Where do I not connect to what I'm doing, the organization that I work with that's that values piece. And then what is it that I need to do in order to create the impact that I want to create. Because a lot of people, when they actually flesh out that impact piece in particular that and that's the sense of purpose, they recognize, oh, okay, well, if I want to have this kind of impact with this team or this department, or, you know, this community, whatever context it's in, it then starts to highlight, okay, these are the skills I then need to develop. I need to develop the skills to have courageous conversations. I need to develop the skills to give feedback in a meaningful way. I need to know how to set boundaries. I need to know how to practice compassion. And then that starts to shine a light on Okay, well, if I want to be this kind of leader, if I want to have this kind of impact, I need to develop these skill sets.
Okay? Let me pull you down with advocate for a second. I really value structure and order. Because I'm an engineer, my strengths are logic. It makes sense order, you know, tensile strength of two pieces of metal holding a bridge together. How do I think very clearly, very logically, very structured. And I the impact of have have is I can get things done that are built to last. Why would I want to change that?
You wouldn't you. So I want to have
a different impact. I want to. I want to,
okay, so, so when you say you have a different I want to build things at last, I would then dig into
that's I'm deviled advocating that position. I can't really answer your question about, what do I really think and feel, because I'm acting at that. But that kind of where I'm where I'm going in terms of when you have someone that has a relatively in their world, successful career life, position to date, based on their levels of awareness that got them to that point. How do they shift that?
Well, firstly, like, are they? Do they want to, you know? So if someone was, ego tells me to do okay, but ego has no place in leadership, right? So if really, yeah, because ego is, how do I maintain my status? How do I maintain my my face, my mask, you know, my Yeah, like, my status, my stature, it's very externally focused, whereas, like, if we're talking about true leadership, it's, how do I be of service to other people? And that isn't always going to mean that I look the best, that I'm the one that gets all the success, that I'm the one that is acknowledged the most. It's, How do I create a space for my team to be able to do that. So if someone has those strong technical capabilities and they're moving up into that position, the first question, and this is also something that's missing in leadership development when people get moved into those positions, is, why do you want to come here? What? Why do you want to step into it's like, oh, and the answer might be, well, there's nowhere else. Nowhere else for me to go. Okay, so let's look, you know, you said, I'm really strong at structure and order, like, that's what I value. You know, how I think, like, very clearly, very process driven, you know, my strengths are being, like, analytical, I don't know. Can't remember what you said, but be like, Okay, great. So what are then the strengths of the people in your team? How? How can we understand what they bring to the table? And then how do you utilize those strengths to then create the outcome? So like that team, if we're talking about a team with an organization, will be driven by specific objectives, right? Like the things that they need to deliver on. It's like, okay, so using your strengths alone, how would you deliver on those things? Okay, well, I'd be able to do this and this and this. Okay, where are the gaps? Well, I have gaps in this and this and this, because, you know, if I'm very structurally, if I think very structured. I might struggle with seeing the bigger picture and how things fit together in terms of x, y and z. So then who in your team has the ability to do that? Has that as a really, as a strength, and then you work through the mindset of you've built your career up to this date being an individual contributor to succeed here, we now need to leverage other people, because your skill set isn't going to be the only thing that's going to drive the success moving forward from here. And so the work that I do in terms of mindset is holding holding value to what you bring. It's not about diminishing that, taking that away, and then it's about expanding that to go Your contribution will be even more valuable when we bring in the contribution of the rest of your team, when we utilize the strengths that everyone else has to be able to create the results that you need as a team. And so if there wasn't a willingness to do that, if there wasn't a willingness to step outside the individual contributor mindset, then that tough conversation needs to happen. Of is this position that is this the position you really want to be in? Are you able to step out of it's me and my contribution and the success that I create create to it's me that creates an environment for my whole team to contribute, because that's now what success is, and I think that's often the conversations that aren't happening. You know, specifically, when I worked in professional services, it's individual contribution accelerates growth, right? You're technically capable, but they were often the teams that were the most, maybe not say, most unsuccessful, but they weren't the teams that were driven the most, and the conversations that weren't happening was this position isn't the best fit for you because of what you're willing or unwilling to do. And so there's the coaching that can happen to try and help someone move through that, but at some point, coaching only does so much, and there has to be a decision that someone needs to make about, is this something I want to do? Is this something I want to expand in, using our language from earlier or not? And sometimes that can be hard, that sometimes can
be hard to make that decision. How long does it take
to learn that, to develop that is that
it's a there's no answer to the question, really, I'm interested more, and then perhaps trying to help people understand, given all that you've said I have to do right if I'm that leader and I want to do all that stuff? Or how long does that take
your whole career? Because it's going to, it's, and this is also the other challenge. It's it doesn't end, because you could learn that skill set to the extent that supports your team, the immediate team that you have, but then you move to a different team, and you have a whole different set of people, you have a whole different set of people that have different strengths, then you have a whole different strategy that you're working towards, which means that we then need to evolve the way we use those skill sets so you can learn the base skill set of doing all of those things, like how to Give feedback, how to, you know, build a strong team, how to have, you know, meaningful conversations, how to set boundaries, how to set expectations, all of those things you can know the base framework, but how it's applied will depend on the kind of people you have, the kind of organization you work in, The the subject matter that you're working with, and if to come kind of full circle back, it's like, that can be what makes leadership part too, right? Because when we step into a different team or an organization, it's like, oh, okay, everything that I applied in my last role, the base level, is the same, but now how I integrate it, how I now apply it with these different set of people. Is different. I need to evolve. And then that comes to listening. How am I listening? To learn about these people, how they work, how they like to be led to, then support them in the best way. And so there is no binary of it'll take you two years, and then you'll learn how to be a leader. It might take you three months to learn the skills, but then you're spending the rest of your career applying them in different ways, refining them, you know, and and I think that's the growth mindset that we need to bring. Because even if we think about like, even using podcasts as an example, right, you can podcast for a year, and you're like, I've learned all the skills of podcasting, but then you have to adapt your skills of questioning and interviewing and things like that, depending on the person that sits in front of you and the way that they show up and the way that they they talk. And so you're constantly refining that skill set. And if we're not willing to do that, we're going to stunt right and that's when our leadership becomes less impactful, because. Because we're now no longer willing to shift and change and to adapt the way that we show up depending on the people that are sitting in front of
us. Tash, in your experience, is it different for men than women or vice versa? Is it harder or easier for either?
I think the different skills might apply differently. So I think for women, you know, we're probably more wired for compassion, empathy, that so like, that connection, maybe that social awareness, like we're we're more adept to, like, taking more notice of, okay, all that person's reacting this way, all that person's body's doing this. So I think in terms of the emotional intelligence piece, maybe women are can strengthen that skill set a lot better. But then in other aspects, men likely have more confidence to give feedback, to set clear expectations, to do more of that. The word I want to use more of that direct stuff that's needed, but I would also say I've met many women leaders who also do it really well, right? But they've also, again, harnessed that skill set. So I think that there are some aspects that women are stronger more maybe more naturally, and men are stronger, maybe more naturally. But then again, it's all nuanced by environment. What kind of environment are the men and women working in? Does the environment make it more conducive for men to show up a certain way? Does it make it more conducive for women to show up a different way? And that's where we need to then we're kind of diving into more organizational cultures, like, what's the culture that we're driving? How does that impact the people that are there, and the way that they show up, and the way that that impacts the way that they show up? So I definitely think that there is differences, and I think that those differences don't have to limit us in terms of how we build that those skills and how we use them in the way that we lead?
I'm not sure there's an answer this question. I'll ask it based on your experience, so that that kind of role play that I suggest you this engineer, blah, blah, blah, blah, very would you given what we just said? And I know there's lots of assumptions that are not always true, would you if that person was willing to be coached and have a coach, would they be better off with another man or woman, assuming they're a man? Oh,
oh, I don't know. I think it would depend. Interestingly, I have a very 5050, slit with men and women clients, and the majority of my men clients are far older than me. And I really found that interesting when I started seeing that trend. And I would say, based on the feedback that I've gotten from those clients, that they appreciated how different my viewpoint was, how different my perspective was, the way that I could question the observations that I had. So I would say that, I think it would say that's the level of coachability. If someone is super coachable and they want to be uncomfortable and they want to be asked the hard questions, go with someone that makes you feel quite uncomfortable, you know. So if you're like, Oh, I would feel most comfortable with like a man who's maybe about the same age as me, who's had the same career, you're going to possibly get a lot of what maybe you're more used to in terms of your interactions. But if you as someone who wants to really shift the way that you think, get someone who is completely different to you, who makes you slightly uncomfortable, not unsafe, uncomfortable, right? Like, there's a little bit of resistance, of like, Oh, can I, you know, I remember starting coaching with, with one guy. He was in his 50s, and I started talking about emotions, and he I just saw this, like a visceral reaction, because I talk a lot about emotions and leadership, and there's a visceral reaction in his body. And he was like, I don't think so. And I was like, we're going to so here are some emotion cards that we're going to start playing with, and we're going to start talking about it. And a year later, he would come to a session, and he would immediately talk from an emotion place first. So this is what I felt this week. You know, I had this interaction. This is how I felt about it. I'm like, great, right? So, yeah, I'm, I'm always an advocate of where do I feel most uncomfortable, and is that going to help me get to where I want to go? And I I don't like being uncomfortable. I'm very like, I like to know, I like to plan, but then I also recognize that I'm only going to stay the same if I keep doing the same. And. Walking to the same people. And so the only way that I'm going to become better at what I do and to learn the skills that I need is to get into spaces that make me feel really uncomfortable. So, and I don't know if it's the same, like for women, if, if the answer would be the same, of like, go to a man, I think it would really depend on what is it that you're really wanting, and you know, what are the certain skills and traits you want to develop and who is going to best serve you to do that, whether that is man or woman, whether that is, yeah, age or or not, or whatever, it's get really intentional about what, you know, what it is that you really want to get out of it and then make that decision based on that.
Thank you. Um, is there anything that shaped your willingness to be uncomfortable and or do you have any practices that continue to remind you of the value of that?
I think one, one thing that shaped me the most I got made redundant in or disestablished in 20
future freed up for you,
yeah, yeah. Future Freedom Friday, yeah, I was made redundant. And in the disestablishment meeting, the CEO was crying. And I just remember I was like, what is happening. You know, I'm meant to be the one crying. I'm meant to be the one that's really upset by this. And I wasn't chosen for the remaining role, again, someone who was almost exactly the same as me. She was another woman. She was the exact same age, she had the exact same experience, and I just couldn't understand why she got the leg up over me. And after that moment, I went for I I just decided I was like, I'm not letting anyone dictate my value ever again in terms of the value that I give, the value that I bring, because I really had to fight for that job when I shouldn't have needed to, even when I got the job initially, and the next job that I went for, I went for senior positions, and I got $20,000 more in salary, and I literally had to fight for the money I got beforehand. And I decided then and I could I went for jobs that I didn't think I could get based on my past experience, but I went for it anyway. And I learned how to sell myself. I learned how to, you know, articulate my value. And I decided then that I was always going to do at least one thing that made me uncomfortable, at least every month, or at least with something significant, and that's since served me, since having a business, because everything that you're doing is uncomfortable when you're when you've got your own business, you know, you're selling, your marketing, you're, you know, sending proposals, you're pitching, you're doing all these things that you have no control over that's so out of the norm of what you've ever done as an employee. And I always go back to that moment I was like, I'm never going to feel that way again. I'm never going to feel that small and that out of control. And one of the practices that I have, I don't know if you show the video to this podcast, but I've got what's called a wins jar, and it's just a gherkin jar that I've cleaned out, and I've got post it notes, and every time I do something that's uncomfortable, that's scary, that I've had a win, like I got a yes, or, you know, something's been approved, or whatever, I put it in here. And then when I have those moments where I don't want to do it, it's too hard. What if I fail? What if it's a no? I look at that jar because it's physically on my desk, and I'm like, I did all those things so I can do this thing. And, you know, another practice that I have, I It's a this idea that I came up with called the courage and confidence bank account, which is, there are so many moments across your life that you've done things that took courage, right? And courage is the presence of fear. It's not the absence of fear. Like you have to feel scared and do something, and then that's when you build your courage, and when you come to a moment where I can't do this, it's too hard. I've never done this before. I talk to my clients about tapping into your bank account, going into your savings account, it's like you've had all those moments. Just transfer some of that into your everyday spending account, and you're going to spend that courage today for this moment, because all of those things that you didn't know how to do, you've never done before you did, and it's all stored up in your psyche. It's all stored up in your brain. But we don't think about those things because we have that recency bias. It's like, oh, I didn't do it in the last three weeks, or I've never done it before, or we think only I have to have done this exact thing in order to feel confidence like no, you do scary things all the time. Otherwise, what are you doing? Otherwise, we just coasting and doing nothing right? So those are the two big practices that I use to do things that are uncomfortable. You know, even like pitching to podcasts, like pitching to speak at conferences like. I don't know what people are going to say, and more often I'm going to get a no, but another no gets me closer to a Yes, right? Like, and I and that goes back to what you were saying, like, go for the No. That's another tactic that I've heard from people. It's like, set the goal of number of no's you're going to get Yeah. You know, because it means that you're asking, it means that you're going for it means that you're doing something, and I think that's important in leadership too. You know, we're often just waiting to know everything or to be the expert or to get it right or to guarantee the outcome. It's not how it works. You know, we only get the information if we do it. I wrote recently
about this inflection point that when we come across a situation, or are asked a question, or we're in a scenario where, internally or externally, my response is, I don't know. At that inflection point, what do we do if, on one side, we kind of got shit, panic, oh, my god, fear. But I need to know, you know, yeah, yeah. Versus wow, I don't know, yeah, wow. That's, that's fascinating. I don't know that's interesting. And just that inflection point takes us off in two very, very different journeys. Multiply that by my tenure. No wonder I respond the way I respond, yeah,
yeah. And I talk about I don't know is one of the biggest credibility builders you can use. It's one of the biggest underestimated, underutilized, credit credibility builders we have in our pocket. Because if we say, I don't know, again, there's the willingness to be curious, I don't know, yeah. And I mean, we can always decide, right? It's like, I'm either going to go into fear and panic and get caught up in the the negative, or, yeah, using it as that opportunity. And that's what I always did across my career. It's like, I don't know. Actually, I've never come across this particular incident before. I worked in HR, like, eight managers come to me all the time and be like, you must know this. I'm like, Absolutely not. You're weird, and I've never come across this before, but I'm gonna go and find out. I'm gonna go and ask some questions, figure it out, and then I've learned something. And, yeah, it's, it's a powerful phrase that I don't think we utilize enough, and we don't recognize the power that that phrase can have and where we go next.
Yeah, I agree. Um, TASH, do you have a spicy opinion on imposter syndrome?
Yes, I it's not a syndrome. It's not a diagnosis that we get. I used, I used to, I used to call it a syndrome. Let's, I'm not going to lie about that. You know, Valerie Young is one of the the early speakers on imposter syndrome. I've come since running my thriving new professionals program. Someone in the program said, This is not a syndrome, and we can't call it that, because it it negates real like, you know, it negates other things that people get diagnosis for. And I said, Oh, absolutely, I'm going to dive into this, and I'm going to, I'm going to learn more about that. I I still believe it exists, but it's a thinking pattern. It's so I talk about it as imposter thinking. It's a train of thought that we can get stuck in, of, I don't belong here. I'm going to get found out I didn't deserve to be here, you know, etc, etc, but we have the ability to change the way that we think. We have the ability to change and short circuit our brain in terms of its thinking spirals. And so I do believe that the train of thinking exists because it does, you know, and it this, there's research shows that it's higher in women, and I have the whole view on that, that it's because women are more likely to talk about it than men. They're more likely to say, I feel those things than than men do.
And so it could be higher in men. Oh, I,
I, I personally reckon. I'm not a statistician, so I don't do research, but I would say that every single person on the planet has experienced it at some point in their life. It's just whether it becomes, whether it becomes, so what I'm looking for debilitating like whether it becomes spiraling, where people just ruminated on it. You know, over and over again, I would say 99% of people have experienced it across their life. And yeah, it's and again, it's there's so many factors to it, but ultimately, Are we recognizing the right things enough that helps to quieten those thoughts. And that's our wins, our proud moments. Like you know, that's one of the things my wins jars. Wins jar is for the other thing that I the other viewpoint I have about imposter thinking, is that it's. Is a good thing. And a lot of people be like, No, it's not. It holds me stacked. And it's like, that's just a perspective. It's like, your inflection point, it either holds us back or it expands us. So the way that I use imposter thinking, it's if I feel like an imposter in this moment, it means I'm doing something different. It means that I'm doing something I haven't done before. If I didn't feel this way in this moment, I would be doing something that I've done 1000 times. Yeah, it's a good reason. And so, you know, it's like, I use it as my stretch, like, if I'm not experiencing imposter thinking or some self doubt at some point, like I'm just coasting, I'm doing nothing stretchy, I'm doing nothing different, and then what are we doing? And so that would be my spicy opinion. Maybe that's one that I need to talk about a bit
more. Well, again, I observe, like you do. I was about to say sadly. I'm not sure it's a sadly thing, but I'm I don't know what it is. Many more women seem to claim it, but a bit like you, I'd have a position that probably as many, if not more, men, actually have it, wherever it is, whether it's a thinking or not a syndrome. And yet, I think the more important thing is that's an in low reflection point. Do you use it to drive you and kind of go, yeah, yeah. I must be feeling this because I'm doing something different, out of my comfort zone. I'm not used to, you know, yada yada yada versus, oh my god, I shouldn't be here. Therefore, I'm going to climb up and become a smaller version of myself.
And if you shouldn't be there, you wouldn't be there. If I'm going to get pretty, like, black and white, simple about it, you know, it's like we there may, there's moments where we experience it the most, right? We've just taken a new job, or we've just stepped up, you know, in our in our responsibilities, like, I shouldn't be here. It's like, then you wouldn't have been if someone didn't see that you had some sense of either competence or capability, of potential or potential. You wouldn't have been put into that position unless you lied through your teeth that got you there. Then yes, valid. Feel that way, because you shouldn't be there. But with all the people I've coached through imposter thinking, when we dig into experience skills, you know all of those things I'm like, you have exactly what you need to be here, it's just, how are you thinking about it? Yeah.
Tash, a conscious of time. So maybe a couple of last questions from me, given your position on the role of and the impact of leadership and all the kind of spicy opinions you have about it, if you were able to dictate, and, you know, mandate, a specific criteria that all people in a leadership position have to have, they have to pass that test. Do that thing experience this, have this mindset, you know, whatever it might be that would lead into some of the things that you're talking about. Probably not. Probably not all of the time, everywhere, but at least it's like a stage gate. You You don't get to become a leader unless you've done this. Have this, said this experience that? What would that be?
How would you measure this? I don't know, will be three things, self awareness, a high level of self awareness, you can tell me, your strengths, your gaps, where you need help, where you struggle, like a really strong sense of self awareness and a willingness to continue developing that self awareness, because it's not a stagnant point in the sand line in the sand place. Social awareness. You have a high level of social awareness that's the ability to read the room, read other people, read between the lines, because people aren't telling you everything you need to be able to be notice right? Pay attention. Assume they're not exactly yes, if you're gonna assume anything, assume you know nothing. Um, and the third one would be compassion. And I think compassion encapsulates the listening aspect we we've spoken a lot about. And I think also, does compassion sit within this generous interpretation or generous assumptions, like, if you're going to assume anything, make it generous, you know? And I think that does connect to compassion. Of I have a lot of leaders come to me. I've got this problem. Person, I've got this problem employee, I've got this difficult person. Like, are they though? Like, do you know that for a fact, if you were being generous, what interpretation would you give to them? What interpretation would you take? If you i. I mean, there's so many more things, but I think fundamentally those three things gives such a great grounding place for leadership to build from there, because it's all about how you connect to yourself and know yourself, and how you connect and pay attention to other people.
I like that I'm all might also spark the thought, do you think then I know we're speculating, right? Is that something I can do when I'm 18, past the test and my driver until I'm 70, and then at 70, I need to do it every two years, just to recalibrate because I'm getting older, I'm gonna get a little bit less. My vision is going I can't so I'm using the car driving test as an analogy. Is it the sort of thing that you pass once? Or Should this be a decade per test? Should this be an annual? Should this be a monthly? You know, I'm just interested. You have a a view either way,
regularly? Absolutely. This is not a Yep, I'm self aware. I have social awareness. I'm compassionate at 18, because, trust me, I don't think any 18 year old has that. Just think it back to me at 18, but I would say, like at the minimum, significant transitions. At a minimum, significant transitions would be changing jobs, changing significant positions within a company, if you're not changing companies, even just in life, significant transitions like, you know, getting engaged, getting married, having a child, buying a house, like, Oh my God, all of the times that my husband and I had to, like, recalibrate, you know, at each of those, each of those transitions, you know, and this goes down to, like, the essence of who you are changes all the time, like we're not a stagnant person, and our level of self awareness develops and changes. I would say that can decrease as much as it can increase, because we can get quite fixed in the way that we think about things potentially, and so our level of self awareness can decrease with that. But I would say at a minimum, significant transitions, you know, at a maximum, why not every year? Why not? You know, we do New Year's resolutions every year. We, you know, set, if we're thinking about companies, we set goals every three, 612, months, like, why are we not checking in on those things? And this is something that, you know, I talk about with my with my clients, is your one on ones need to be spent talking about the person and what they need, what's going on for them. You know, because the questions that I propose in my in my resources, is like, what strengths are they utilizing? What challenges they're experiencing if they were to resign tomorrow, what, what would be the reason? What do they want to focus on for the next three months that develops self awareness? What challenges are they experiencing with other people that develop social awareness? Right? So again, and all of those are just micro reflection moments where this doesn't have to be some training. You have to formally do. These are just some prompting questions you can ask yourself, have people ask you. And as a leader, you can do this for your people, right? Create these pockets of moments where they can check in with it.
So a final question from me, and I'm going to come all the way back to the start. I'll lead off with you. You may or may not be familiar. I quite enjoyed the legacy book by James Kerr about the All Blacks. And what's always struck me is this idea that a better person is a better all black, if I reflect on my own kind of thoughts around even just our conversation, I could definitely a bit be a better human if I was more generous with my assumptions. So thank you for that. But if I if I ask you, what are you willing to have your mind changed about? I
that I don't know anything about leadership,
that's a great answer. But,
you know, and I just, I gave a talk on Friday and at a conference, and, you know, I talked about the huge generational shifts that we're going through right now, probably the most significant generational shifts, absolutely with Gen Z and Gen Alpha coming through. And one thing I said is, you know, leadership is about now, acknowledging that we know nothing and being willing to learn everything. And I think, you know, I have opinions. I spark out a lot of stuff, and I because I want to create opportunities, like, tell me I'm wrong. Like, tell me I don't know something. Tell me I'm not thinking about it as fully. Because how else are we going to learn those things? And so, yeah, I'm willing to have my mind changed that I don't know nothing about what I do. And you know, if I if I can share one piece of value to one person in one conversation, then that's the best thing that I can do.
Thank you for a very generous answer. You're
welcome. It's going to be played over the internet.
Why should I hire you? Tash, you said you know nothing. I only said I was willing to consider the plausibility, yeah,
that I know nothing.
Tash, look. Thank you for your time. Thank you probably more for your generosity and thought and willingness to have your own thinking turned on yourself.
Thank you. Thank
you for challenging me. It's probably the you're the biggest compliment anyone that hires you could probably give you. So where, where do we find out a bit more about you? How do we get in touch? If people are interested in engaging you, where do they go? Yeah,
so www.tashpieterse.com I will, I will type that out, and that will be written the show notes, yes, because people will get my last name wrong. So, yeah, www.tashpieterse.com and I'm most active on LinkedIn and Instagram, so www.instagram/tash_pieterse on Instagram, and then just www.linkedin/com/in/tashpieterse on LinkedIn, yeah, super and then my podcast lead with less where I love to talk, as you can probably tell, because we have not had a 30 minute conversation. And yeah, I share a lot of my thoughts and views on there as well.
Thank you very much. Appreciate your time.
Thank you so much. What a great conversation.
